Ex PESA n's R US: Internet Merchants Association formed by ex PeSA members

[BellisimaJ.]

And in the original thread:

Originally Posted by _____
Toy, I know you're busy, but when you have the time I'd appreciate it if you'd expand on that statement. Rumored where? By whom?

IF there's any truth to the allegation, there are some obvious concerns about the money and a not-so-obvious concern that such ties could attract DOJ scrutiny in the future and jeopardize PeSA's very existence.

TR's Response:

I don't know if there's any truth to it at all or not. When I was posting threads before, over the Ethical flap, I received several emails from different PeSA members with those warnings, and suggested that my safety might be in jeapordy, hence the "rumored to be" status.

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6103&page=3

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:

joefriday2
10/11/06 12:34 AM (#31)

I believe PESA is a 501c3 corporation. They will have to file reports with the Internal Revenue Service. Those reports are public record and can be viewed by anyone.

Here is some information about this:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4221.pdf

Ben

got**********

Bi***** raises some extremely valid questions, ones that I'm sure many (if not the majority) of members are asking.

Providing solid answers to them will go a long way towards keeping the "900 members" from dropping out.


1bu******
10/11/06 03:04 AM (#33)

Ben

as point of clarification dues are $99 for 1st year then $240 per year according to Jonathan's Post

St******


1bu*******
10/11/06 03:47 AM (#34)

Bi******* it was Ta*** who raised the questions, not Bi*** and she does raise some valid questions.

The by-laws that currently exist are weak at best. There has been a real lack of transparancey in the past, will this change now and going forward? Will there be new by-laws adapted. It is apparent this plan has been in the works for some time now and yet only presented to the group yesterday. Never a mention or a road map was posted previously. It will go a long way to have more transparancey and a complete and updated set of by-laws prior to any dues process commencing. Also a release of current finacial statements is something that would be beneficial, a clear and concise set of rules regarding elections, dates, times, places etc.

St******


sho*********
10/11/06 06:08 AM (#35)


-St****

I am in 100% agreement with you.

Ra******

1s*******
10/11/06 06:26 AM (#36)


I have another question on the dues. I'm sure there are a few other sellers such as myself who are not activley selling a this time. We used to run 100K+ monthly and at some point may jump back into the fray. We became members in the very early days of the "elite" I do still drop in here and occasionally comment and read but as a non-active seller I personally could not justify paying for access until I am at a minimum looking to restart selling. Will there be a "non-dues paying" member status of some sort? For example, can still read and post on this board but not able to vote in elections or access the private off-eBay board, and not eligible for any other PESA benefits?



1bu*******
10/11/06 06:32 AM (#37)


Ri*****


Jonathan answered that question already, post 13 of this thread

"And, all PESA members will have access to the discussion forum. If you don't pay your dues, you will not have an active membership in PESA and no access to the discussion forum."


bat********
10/11/06 07:03 AM (#38)

Way to go PESA - Great plans! Very encouraging, the combined business savvy of this group is astounding and the dues are well worth every penny! ---

Bat*********


co*********
10/11/06 07:06 AM (#39)

Hmmmmmm.............


bu******
10/11/06 07:32 AM (#40)

"In the meantime, we have the holiday season coming up and the Board is hoping to make a positive contribution to everyone's top and bottom lines as quickly as possible. Specific details regarding the first of these contributions should be available soon."


I look forward to hearing more and enjoying the benefits of membership!!

St********

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:

Yesterday I sent a cordial message to the PeSA leader and moderators letting them know that I was about to remove myself from the PeSA eBay Group board and that I was no longer interested in being a member of PeSA.

Thus, I assume that by doing so, I am no longer a member of PeSA.

For all I know, they might still consider me one but I'm not.

Just for the record.

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:
Speaking is Pompous Jay the PeSA Cowboy:

10/11/06 08:17 AM (#41)


It seems to me that the people wavering on joining or not-joining are asking two very different questions.

One group asks:

"Is this worth $99 / $240 to ME?"

OK, legitimate question. It's the same question non-Buysafe users are asking about BuySafe's service. If BuySafe were free to all users (1) everyone would use it and (2) it would mean nothing as a result. The risk non-BuySafe users run, of course, is that BuySafe is successful in differentiating their sellers from other sellers, and non-BuySafe sellers are penalized in the marketplace as a result. Non-BuySafe sellers are hoping that the system does not work and does not bring incremental business or higher ASPs to their competitors who use BuySafe.

The PeSA thing is similar. You are looking to gain a competitive advantage by participating here at PeSA, and you are trying to decide if it is worth your dues to gain that competitive advantage. Similarly, you are perfectly willing to participate, it seems, if it costs you nothing (as would 1000s of others of other would-be PeSA sellers on eBay and elsewhere).

My thoughts would be:

1. If you haven't made $99 by reading these threads, then you're reading the wrong threads.

2. If you don't pony up the $99, just as with BuySafe, you run the risk of being excluded, formally or (worse) informally in favor of PeSA members (ie, last January's Ebay Top Seller event was heavvvvvy with PeSA members, and it was not a coincidence.)

3. If you don't pony up the $99, then you are asking too much to expect dues-paying members to still participate on your free discussion board:
most of us have time for just one Discussion Board a day (and many top PeSAns do not particiopate here at all, and appear only at the PeSA events, like Ja******* from EF***, at the recent San Francisco summit).

4. If you don't pony up the $99, then you are banking that PeSA's agenda will be aligned with your agenda, and the changes we lobby EBay for will be the same changes you would want. The risk you run is that we are successful and your business is hurt somehow as a result.

Bolding mine - TR

5. Clearly PeSA is lobbying for recognition at multiple levels within eBay. If PeSA is successful then that PeSA logo on your shirt or ad might really mean something. What if PeSA had a dedicated phone line, or VeRO contact, or whatever?

6. You cannot expect EBay to treat you identically to the person who does not pay dues. Dues-Paying demonstrates a commitment. EBay gets the Voices members from the message boards: they want EBayers who are already active community members. Certainly at the January Top Seller event last year (where I was able to spend an hour speaking quietly over dinner with Rob Chestnut, I spent my time speaking to my issues, not yours). If PeSA is holding events, or participating in eBay sponsored events, and you are not a dues paying member, then you cannot expect PeSA members to use their limited time to speak to your concerns rather than ours.

The other question being asked returns to the Ethics issues, or
the Structure issues, or the Non Profit issues, or whatever. These have been around since Day One, and it is over these very same questions that I removed myself from the BOD and have not participated since. Like many of you, I think that PeSA is wayyyyy behind in basic communication with the members, and that a full accounting would (be / have been) nice.

But, so what? If you're using ethical / moral issues to debate the value of a $99 dues payment, then I suppose you are not eating meat, and not buying oil products, and not voting Republican or Democrat, not using Microsoft products, and on and on and on. The moral issues here do not relate to the Dues question, to my mind, and there is no guarantee that the subsidized PeSA will perform any more admirably than the free PeSA. If history is any indication, in fact, Dues will further corrupt PeSA and the message will be further lost or compromised.

I don't see this as a valid discussion point for dues. If you don't like the group's set-up as a free group, why should you like it any more, or less, as a dues-collecting group? If you don't think the group is being run properly, then leave. Other members have left.

Bottom line (for me): the dues are a small price to pay for continued access to eBay and other like-minded top sellers. I think of the current dues being collected as overdue dues for years past: PeSA could have collected dues years ago but they did not. It is also a relatively small way to say thanks to the dozens of members who have given literally thousands of hours of their valuable time to get us to this point.

JAY


co*******
10/11/06 08:38 AM (#42)

So you believe the political structure will continue on a similar path then. The funds will give tighter control but yet greater potential. My time is not free and I can relate to that. At a turning point we are.

I too must see what the promised benefits are before I can decide. I do like the looks of that PESA logo on my about ME page and this board is good for thought - but at this point I am uncertain of gained benefits. Tell me more about the great plans of the future

Ki********

mrp**********
10/11/06 08:47 AM (#43)

I know that I have learned quite a bit from this forum in the short time I have been here. I feel that it is definitely worth the $99. I will re-evaluate next year when the $240 fee comes around.

Cha********


go***********
10/11/06 09:20 AM (#44 of 740)

I have to ask ONE basic question...why is every naysayer standing back and asking what will PeSA do for them. Why not look at the other side and ask what can I DO for PeSA to help my fellow members. Have we all become so self centered we only see the sky above our own heads.

Seems the naysayers are the loners....certainly many questions being asked are good....why not get involved in PeSA and put in your time to improve the organization.

As Jay perfectly pointed out, there is strength in numbers and since PeSA is already the respected organization that it was intended to be, how could $99 be a stumbling block.

It's the old sales addage, give it to them for nothing and they treat it as such. Charge them and they will have much more respect and try to make it work. Maybe 400 active members paying dues would be a stronger force than the 900+ we have today. (I really hope it's 1000+ active members)

Just some thoughts on the subject.


lan********
10/11/06 09:32 AM (#45)

OK, being the tight 'rrrs that I am

Year 1 is US$99, Year 2 is US$240, so what about an upfront US$300 for 2 years subscription ? I will happily do that to save 39 bucks

Ed********


li********
10/11/06 09:32 AM (#46

If dues are to be collected then I think a treasurer should be elected. I know we already have one in Polly Cortese but we, the members, had no say in that appointment.

As an aside, this board reminds me of a school committee I once joined. They begged for volunteers, I joined. There were 3 women running the show, the volunteers they did manage to round up sat there watching them talk to each other. As in; Jan, did you do what we discussed on the phone? Linda, how's your project going? So we are going to go ahead and do that? Great, meeting adjourned. It was the same with every meeting. Every now and then a question was asked, where can we buy the prizes? I offered a supplier. Great! Bring in the catalog. I did, she promptly took said catalog without another word. The next week Linda had to report on what she ordered from my catalog. In other words, there were 3 people running the whole show and refused to share with anyone else the plans or duties. I would have jumped in feet first if they had bothered to give me something to do, some direction, but no, they did it all themselves, leaving us in the dark. And believe me, each week the volunteers sitting in the dark got fewer and fewer. I eventually left too. When the event actually happened it looked nothing like what was described to us in the meeting. I didn't volunteer last year and will not this year either, why should I? They don't need me.

My point being, I see nothing happening on this board. I see a lot of talk about how great we are, how great our plans are, how much has been accomplished, etc. But, what has been accomplished? What plans? What is going on? Everything here is wait, wait, wait, BAM, here it is, live with it.

A good example is this announcement thread. Okay, yes, dues have been discussed before, we all know that. But BAM, here's the announcement, we have been hashing this out for a year but we haven't bothered to keep you darkies informed. Now just follow us, we know what we are doing and where we are going, you don't need to know the details, we'll tell you if we think you need to know.

Like the eBay meeting, it will be great! It was great! We'll tell you all about it! It happened! What? No, we can't discuss it. Well maybe when you were hyping it you could have mentioned that the majority of the meeting would be Top Secret and couldn't be discussed afterwards?

Someone asked about the results of the SF summit and got the same answer everyone gets. It was great! You shoulda been there! Here's pictures of us having fun. Be there next time.

No meat. Why should anyone be expected to go to the summit on those answers? How about people who couldn't make it? There's nothing writing saying Amazon said this, eBay said this, Overstock set up a recap webpage for us, go here-, etc, etc. Why not? I was at the Atlanta summit and I still don't know half of what was said there, seems to me I missed out on all the good stuff cause nothing I saw would entice me to pay to fly to SF for 3 days.

Sorry for the long post and general wandering of my brain but it really really irks me that so much seems to happen behind the scenes and we only find out about it after it was a done deal. I hate sitting in the dark.


cam******
10/11/06 09:43 AM (#47)


I just joined a little bit ago and I was expecting to pay dues.

I think it's a fine idea.

I do have two questions.

1. Is it ok with ebay board policies i.e. group policies to have this kind of group discussion board? I don't think it is, paying dues ebay group is most likely a no no.

2. Not so much a question as a statement about a question not asked by anyone yet...I think there should be an option for people to pay the entire $240 amount rather then the reduced amount. I for one would rather pay more because this stuff does not come cheap and more money to the group would be better then less money.


Da*******


cel***********
10/11/06 09:46 AM (#48)

"1. Is it ok with ebay board policies i.e. group policies to have this kind of group discussion board? I don't think it is, paying dues ebay group is most likely a no no"

Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish?


JH

cam********
10/11/06 10:05 AM (#49)

QUOTE Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish?

Of course, that is what a private invitation only group is about.

My question is about charging money to be in the group that has it's discussion board on ebay.

I don't think you can do that here.

Da******


cel*********
10/11/06 10:09 AM (#50)

"My question is about charging money to be in the group =
that has it's discussion board on ebay"

I doubt it would be an issue if the dues covers membership at the GoPesa.org website and one of the requirements of this eBay group is that it is only for members who are also registered at GoPesa.org.

Just a thought?

The idea of dues isn't to charge people for access to an eBay discussion board. PESA is so much more than only this discussion group...

JH

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=2

[thentavius]

You cannot expect EBay to treat you identically to the person who does not pay dues.

Proof, yet again, of eBay's unlevel paying field.

I'm sure there's one more filter of treatment between "non-paying" PeSAns and regular people.

[BellisimaJ.]

I'm sure there's one more filter of treatment between "non-paying" PeSAns and regular people.

I'm sure you're right, Thentavius. The whole thing seems very sleazy to me.

From TRS:

Originally posted by a TRS poster:

So basically you give these A-Holes your dues and then when they meet with some Head A-Hole at ebay, they just *might* talk your issues for you?

Do you get to pick who talks your issues for you because I sure wouldn't want Jay talking for me. He sounds like a real self centered dickhead. I doubt he's concerned about anyone but himself and his budget to buy ugly hair hats with his name plastered across the front.

At the next summit someone should tape a "Please Kick My Ass" sign on his back.

He's such a huge turn-off.

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=2

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:

1bu*******
10/11/06 10:10 AM (#51)

Da****

I think it would be safe to assume this message board will be closed down and moved off ebay. This is fine except we have members who have requested for 6 months and even longer for access to our off ebay forums and they still have no access. Maybe the dues will go towards hiting a staff member to do tasks like this?<

Again we have yet to be presented a road map, very typical. I have said all along we need dues, but also said we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going.

St******



cel********
10/11/06 10:12 AM (#52)

"I think it would be safe to assume this message board will be closed down and moved off ebay."

That is a big assumption! I didn't get that idea at all?

JH


1bu********
10/11/06 10:13 AM (#53)

JH

I would have to think it is against ebay policies to charge fees to access even a private forum, I may be wrong. No time to research it though.


pri*********
10/11/06 10:17 AM (#54)

I'm a new member and I'm not sure how I got here, but I attended the summit and have been moving forward ever since.

This organization is so necessary for the serious online seller and you are doing an excellent job. I personally appreciate everything that has been done.

These fees are cheap compared to the outrageous teacher's union dues I paid for 27 years! BTW, we called them "professional association" dues

Ju****


cos*********
10/11/06 10:17 AM (#55)

Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish?

I certainly took that to be the case. I belive we are in the process of determining if we will be reading this thread in the future.

I have been in a internal debate trying to decide if this is going to work for me.

Regarding the future spring summit will the exact location be determined before the discount rate anl. dues are to be paid ? PESA has many different members at different ages and income levels. Some have more time others less.

To really benefit I do think I should at least give the summit a look see for myself. Then it would be easier for me to be certain.

However if this Spring Summit is held in a smilar fashion I suspect the cost vs return may be less than I would like. Isn't it all such a gamble. I would like clear expectations of what benefits are offered. Good company and a logo is what I have so far

Ki****



cel********
10/11/06 10:18 AM (#56)

That's why I'm mentioned above that the fees should not be considered as paying for access to eBay Groups. The fees would be for membership in an organization and one of the "benefits" of the membership would be admission into this private eBay Group.

I highly doubt there is anything in the policies that forbids a private group from only accepting members of a certain off-eBay organization, but likewise I don't have time to research it right now either!

JH


cos********
10/11/06 10:27 AM (#57)


JH

Wouldn't you imagine this was discussed in the recent meeting with ebay ? I am sure this is all green for go - from ebay.

I'll take 100 shares of PESA at the IPO

Ki*******


tig*******
10/11/06 11:05 AM (#58)


B*****, wouldn't you consider the hundreds of volunteer hours Tam****** spent on committee meetings and committee business to be a contribution, getting involved? Something other than a "loner?"

There was no prospect for personal gain in all of that, nothing more than a desire to help improve the organization. While she wouldn't immodestly make this claim I'll say it without hesitation: she has helped improve this organization. So let's not go further down that road.

It's also a serious mistake to talk about the $99 as the impediment, as if to balk is petty parsimony. The savings from buysafe will more than cover it if the promotion extends for a few months. There's nothing wrong with the idea of dues - that is not the issue.

There is a world of difference between an informal network and a trade association. For one thing, the memberships attitudes will instantly change and this thread is an example of that. They are buying something, and they have expectations about that and many will be unwilling to accept as much on faith. Some not at all.

Collecting dues is necessary at some point. It keeps the wheels turning. But it won't move the organization one iota in the direction of professionalism, or a member-centric organization. Without a formal structure, without a business plan, without explicit commitments to members and without clearly stated objectives, all dues are is a collection.

--Bi******


pri***********
10/11/06 11:21 AM (#59)

"Again we have yet to be presented a road map, very typical. I have said all along we need dues, but also said we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going."

This quote is typical of many that I find on the ebay boards. I can see the validity of the frustrated feelings that precipitate these posts, but there are a couple of broad-based issues that need to be addressed--not debated--but simply stored away on the 13th brain cell for germination.

"....we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going..." would be a panic-condition 1 issue if we were discussing many existing group dynamics. There are models out there for forming all kinds of alliances. There is no group that exists in this exact configuration, nor are we discussing a group that would have existed at all 10 years ago; thus, we have no model. This group represents a cutting edge concept to merchandising and the organization of the stakeholders who have gotten together to codify their approach to this virgin territory.

The fact that the roadmap is being developed as we travel down the road may make many people uncomfortable, but it is a necessary part of the process. There was no map that lead the pioneers into the west. This is uncharted territory and the application of B&M concepts to an e-commerce model is by definition going to be a clumsy modification at best.

While constructive suggestions are always helpful, I don't think that negativity is ever productive. It is counterproductive to sit on this discussion board and whine about being left in the dark or out of the loop or plans, roadmaps and diagrams that were not developed before the fact. This is a new group, and without core people who have some kind of implied or delegated power to make decisions for the group, it will be chaos. The idea that we can all just fall into committees in an organized fashion is not possible while still allowing for the necessary creativity (read that flexibility)at this stage of development.

While one could certainly argue for more efficient operations of many of the functions at the summit, for example, the core group of "deciders" has already taken that suggestion and planned for professional organization for next meeting. I see this as evidence that this group is a very healthy one at this stage, in that the "deciders" listened to input from the group and took action. This is the how I view much of the dialogue that I have seen on this board. We are ultimately responsible to get what we need from these meetings, summits, groups, and discussion board interactions.

Ju*********


1bu*******
10/11/06 11:25 AM (#60)

hmm

wonder where my business would be today without any kind of road map, not that I have not changed courses many times because I have. But without a plan I would most likely have been on the same bus as glacier bay dvd.

St*****

[BellisimaJ.]

The Saga continues.   From TRS:

li*********
10/11/06 11:34 AM (#61)

"While constructive suggestions are always helpful, I don't think that negativity is ever productive. It is counterproductive to sit on this discussion board and whine about being left in the dark or out of the loop or plans, roadmaps and diagrams that were not developed before the fact."

We've been told of "Joe's Vision" for this group many times but have never been told what exactly that vision is.

We've been told that we are going places but never where they are.

We've been told that 'details will be provided at a later date' and are still waiting.

We've been told that the mysterious 'white papers' from the very first summit would be published, did that ever get done?

Now we are being told to fork over $99-$240 and let them do what they will with it, they'll let us know later what they used it for.

I'm not disputing the dues. I'm disputing the way in which they will be used. Blindly.

And we need a treasurer who will give detailed reports in a timely fashion.

This group has existed long enough to have some clue as to where it is going and how they want to get there, all I want is a clue as to the plans.

And I do not want to have to attend a summit to hear about it.



pri********
10/11/06 11:35 AM (#62)

We were talking about the formation and structure of a group of like-minded people, and we didn't necessarily say that there should be no plan. We simply defended the somewhat serendipitous manner in which it has evolved.

Big difference! This group has waaaay different goals than the sum of the clearly-defined goals of its members

Come out of that box, boy!

BTW, I sounded more than a little preachy--didn't mean to--also did not specifically mean to target you at all but think that your comment typified a lot of people's thoughts.

Ju*****


pri*********
10/11/06 11:45 AM (#63)


"We've been told of ";Joe's Vision" for this group many times but have never been told what exactly that vision is.
We've been told that we are going places but never where they are.
We've been told that 'details will be provided at a later date' and are still waiting."

Jeesh! There was nothing about Joe's vision at the summit. It was all about how all these cool concepts could impact my business and how I could adapt them. I missed the part about about Joe's vision.

I'll tell you what I did see. I saw evidence that someone had a vision several years ago and that a whole bunch of really awesome vendors were interested in helping out. I also saw a bunch of successful e-commerce (read that ebay) sellers doing extraordinary things and spending all kinds of time telling me about them...and for the price of 2 glasses of wine, I got a fantastic private seminar from another PESA member that I couldn't have bought with all the money in the world.

I could, given my proclivity for spinning the language, draw up a white paper report of what I saw at the summit, and I believe that Joe and Co. probably could too. But, that would take me back to the years I spent in the halls of academia, where way too much time was spent "reporting on reports" and "meeting on meetings" and not nearly enough time was spent in action.

It was highly evident to this newcomer, that Joe and Co. had enacted a whole bunch of stuff that they promised in the beginning when the group was formed. I do hope they get their annual report out soon to calm the tide of opposition from those who require so much formal documentation from a new entity.

Ju******


jayandmarie
10/11/06 11:47 AM (#64)

QUOTE: I would like clear expectations of what benefits are offered Good company and a logo is what I have so far.


Oh (partdon my french) Sh*t! Ki*******, you can't be serious. You can't GET NEAR these people from Google, Amazon or Ebay for that matter except at the the summits. You could auction 'Lunch With Colin Rule' on eBay and get $100s of dollars for it: how much would you pay for quality time with very well placed folks from You can't get even near ME for that matter. If that access isn't worth the money, and if you can't figure out how to leverage that to generate a return on your time and money invested, then God help you.


li******** I participated in many BOD meetings, and most lasted several hours. They were nothing like the meetings you described above.

JAY

jayandmarie
10/11/06 11:48 AM (#65)

(sorry, poor editing on my post. You should have read the FIRST version before I went outside for fresh air. Grrrr!)

JAY



li*********
10/11/06 11:56 AM (#66)


But Jay, you participated in the meetings, we only hear that you guys had one, sometimes. Big difference. You have a few hundred people sitting here in the dark waiting to hear what was said and what decisions were made and all we get is oh, we had a 3 hour long meeting and it was adjourned.

It all boils down to, if you don't attend the summits you basically get hints and inuendoes of things that may or may not have happened, nothing concrete. You must attend the summits to get any content. Some folks can't do that. Others won't without something concrete to base the decision on (whether or not to abandon their business/family for those days is a decision for most folks).

I got a kick out of the summit but for other reasons than most folks. I was awed by being able to walk around the building and hear 'eBay' coming out of everyones mouths. Talking about eBay without being looked at funny. Having conversations about eBay without the slightly weird looks the general public gives you when you say it. In other words, I enjoyed being around other like-minded folks for a change. However, I would not pay to fly across the country just to experience it again.


cam*********
10/11/06 11:57 AM (#67)


QUOTE You can't get even near ME for that matter.


Me either. I have a couple of friends that are interested in selling and I humbly answer their questions but my time is my money. I do this alone.


Getting closer to Amazon and Google at the Summit....priceless!


Da******


jayandmarie
10/11/06 12:03 PM (#68)


li****** simply confirming I read your post, I understand your post, I have absolutely no response I wish to make to your post.

JAY


co********
10/11/06 12:10 PM (#69)


Well let's not get too upset - you know a decision can be made too soon or too late. I need a little time on this. I jumped onboard that PESA group of 30 program for $100 a month and now I discover this. I could see it comming but I have to also see results. Communication is key in any relationship.

Is PESA going to grown into a large single destination shopping mall for all the members. Well if I knew that were the case I would have no doubts. But I remain unclear of the planned growth of this organization. A old friend called me the Martha Stewart of stupid questions - so just humor me a little and don't get upset. I'm interested just unsure.

Ki*********


emo**********
10/11/06 12:12 PM (#70)


"We've been told that we are going places but never where they are"

Some people are never satisfied. Isn't it enough that we are moving? Didn't your parents ever take you on a trip when you were a child and tell you "you'll know where we are going when we get there"? Wasn't that suspenseful and a lot of fun?

Think of Pesa members as children and the BOD as their parents and everything makes a lot more sense.

Br******

Bolding mine - TR

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=2&pp=20

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:

li******
10/11/06 12:16 PM (#71)


Yeah, and we always seemed to end up at the dentists office


ac**********
10/11/06 12:16 PM (#72)

I've been absorbing this issue before I posted.

I, like Jay, have been a member since late 2003. I also served on the BOD and removed myself in late 2004. Board meetings are long and usually productive.

I agree with Jay's statement: ";But, so what? If you're using ethical / moral issues to debate the value of a $99 dues payment, then I suppose you are not eating meat, and not buying oil products, and not voting Republican or Democrat, not using Microsoft products, and on and on and on."

Over the last couple of years, I have been probably the most vocal Pesa member about the lack of transparency and the need for major organizational adjustments. I have been hounding the BOD for financial reports continually over the last two years except for the last few months.

But, I really do not expect to see a drastic change coming soon in regards to reporting or transparency. That's just my personal thoughts.

I see that the BOD is severely overloaded, partially by their hesitancy to delegate. That results in a lot of procrastination. They let their mouth make promises their bodies can't keep so they can address the issue later.

I am not posting this to be critical of the BOD. But, your decision to join and pay the $99 shouldn't be based on what the BOD has failed to deliver concerning the reporting. It has to be made based on the return to your operation.

Regards,
Jo********

Ps/ BOD, Where the h$ll are the financials? <

emo*********
10/11/06 12:22 PM (#73)








I agree with Jo******. $99 for a year is literally pennies a day. If you don't get that amount of value out of this, you absolutely shouldn't be here.

What they do with the hundreds of $99's is (to me) a separate issue. I don't care if the BOD spends it all at a strip club in one wild night, as long as I feel I receive $99 worth of value from this organization.

But if there is any hope of ever truly moving to the "next level", they will need a lot more organization, transparency, and those very elusive financials.

Br*********






aci****************
10/11/06 12:28 PM (#74)








Br****** wrote: "I don't care if the BOD spends it all at a strip club in one wild night"

I agree only if they invite me!






pri**********
10/11/06 12:28 PM (#75)








Br*****,

Don't you think that the BOD is aware that they need more and better organization? Don't you think it takes 3 years to sort out the flotsam and jetsom that need to be organized? Am I just too right-brained to be of value here, or do you suggest that I remain very good friends with my accountant

Is this the corporate equivalent of the gang that couldn't shoot straight?

Ju*********



thecol************
10/11/06 12:28 PM (#76)








Because I have participated in PESA I now have a relationship with Rob Chestnut, head of trust and safety. I am on the Trust and Safety advisory council, a group of only 6 buyers/sellers and about 50 members of ebays top safety team. I am helping make decisions that impact the area which I make my living. I have relationships with many of the top sellers on ebay, whom I can call and discuss problems that I am experiencing and find out how they handled it when they went through it. I know Marsha Collier personally and have been in her PBS special and my company is featured in her new book. I was invited to the top seller summit as a guest of ebay. I have a personal relationship with Colin from ebay/paypal who is an unbelievable wealth of knowledge. These are only the things that I can quickly think of that attribute to being a member of PESA.

How the hell could anybody question spending $99 for this? $240? Of course! I just cannot believe that anybody here that has seen even a 10th of the benefit that I have would not spend the dues money, regardless of how complete our organization is.

Na*********






1bu**********
10/11/06 12:32 PM (#77)








Dues are long over due here. I think we need a bare minimum road map here though. At least some new by-laws and clearly definded elections with exact dates.

St*********






mya**********
10/11/06 01:01 PM (#78)








I'm glad to see a lot of these concerns coming up. I don't think that many are necessarily against dues or membership fees, they just want to make sure some safeguards are in place to adequately account for the monies and a plan in place to provide some set tangible benefits.

While this was my first summit and I found it invaluable, I do believe that there has to be more offered to Pesa members to justify dues.

There have been many good ideas tossed around from health insurance, discount shipping, discount suppies and more.

I think that the BOD needs to address some of these issues as it will have a great impact on the majority of the members deciding the worth of joining.

Jo***********






joefriday2
10/11/06 01:03 PM (#79)








It never ceases to amaze me. Everyone wants things, but many do not want to pay for them. The reason PESA is in the shape that it is now is because there has been no money to pay accountants, attorneys, executive directors and other normal expenses that come up when you have a trade organization.

Members have put tens of thousands of dollars on their personal and company credit cards for event deposits, hotel guarantees, etc. because PESA does not have a budget or the money in place.

Those days are over folks. The dues will come in and those dues will be allocated to the things that should have been done already. When the total amount is collected, the board will look at that total and decide how to spend it. Since they don't know what the total will be, it is impossible for them to decide how to spend the money at this time.

You are under no obligation to stay and pay dues. I would advise you that if you have not gotten your $99 worth ALREADY then you should not stay and you should not pay dues. We won't think badly of you. We just realize that PESA is not right for you.

This is a group of HIGH VOLUME internet sellers and if $99 is that big of a deal to you then you really are in the wrong group.

When you get your business up to the level that you can really afford to pay dues then you can re-apply for PESA membership and I'm sure you will be welcomed back with no hard feelings.

Ben






joefriday2
10/11/06 01:08 PM (#80)








You should base your decision on paying PESA dues on what you have received already. Expect nothing more.

PESA is not your mother, your health insurer, your shipper, your employer or your union.

PESA is what it is.

Ben


go**********
10/11/06 01:17 PM (#81)








Hey Ben
Very well put.
B*********






spo************
10/11/06 01:37 PM (#82)








Ben:

I agree. Additionally, as a 501c-3 we are required to file an income tax return, and minutes.

T*********






1bu************
10/11/06 01:39 PM (#83)








T*******

where does it say we are a 501c-3

St**********






har**********
10/11/06 01:50 PM (#84)








Well put Ben.

"Ask not what your PeSA can do for you, but what can you do for your PeSA"

I feel PeSA has made a major jump forward, I'm proud of my PeSA

Ga**********






emo************
10/11/06 02:34 PM (#85)








Ju******* wrote, "Is this the corporate equivalent of the gang that couldn't shoot straight?"

I think we will see that the new DUES RECEIVING Pesa will fast learn how to "shoot straight" (or else it will likely be superceded by another group that can).

Br**********






spo***********
10/11/06 03:06 PM (#86)








Jonathan:

You clarified the 501c-3 status once before. Please do so again.

Thanks,
T*********






ac**************
10/11/06 03:50 PM (#87)








I started to recommend that the discussion about Pesa's organizational structure and transparency be moved to another thread. Since this thread is titled "PESA Organizational Update " and was started by Pesa's CEO, these queries seem appropriate here.

Even though, transparency and better knowledge about the supposed corporation doesn't have much affect on the value of a $99 membership fee, these questions are appropriate issues for this thread. This thread is about much more than the value of membership.

Since the BOD is requesting we pay for membership, I would appreciate Jonathan addressing the issues raised in other posts above.

i.e. ---
What is the corporate structure? What type of corporation is Pesa? Is Pesa a 501c-3? Who are the stock holders?

Does the BOD have plans to improve transparency? Will financial reports be made available to the paid membership? Will financial reports be made available to the BOD?

Etc., etc….

You know all the questions. It would be appropriate for the BOD to address them, especially since they have their hand out asking for $.

As I said, I will be joining regardless. I would just like to know exactly what organization I am joining. It will be better if the paying members know what's going on from the beginning. So, please give us the rest of the story.

Regards,
jo***********






rec**********
10/11/06 06:49 PM (#88)








It's not the $ amount, but it is the idea of spending $'s when you are not sure what you will receive in return. I am uncomfortable financialy supporting an organization where I won't know how the $ is spent and what defined benefit(s) I'll receive should I choose to pursue it(them).

I too can echo the statments made here that there seems to be a core group that has a very strong vision, only it really keeps that vision to itself. I will not dispute the summits' values and hope one day to be able to attend myself. However, when new organizations (ECMTA) are popping up with no introduction to PESA and the group finds out from a 3rd party, it does lend itself a certain exclusionary image. This is just one example of why I as a member am leery of this board/group and question the return of value on the dues.


And to address the issue of participation, just how many posts should a member be making to be considered valuable? It seems like that has been hit on alot lately. As a frequent lurker, I reply when I can and gleen alot of information from some discussions. It seems like if you have a contrary opinion - you are chastised and reminded that this is a group of volunteers and if you don't post alot, your opinion of the group direction is of lesser value. That is discouraging to say the least.

I can't log in to the gopesa board so I don't know if any of my issues would have been addressed there. (L*****, I was writing this at the time of your email - I'm leaving it in as I still can't get in! But Thanks!)

And ditto what Jo***** said above.

"As I said, I will be joining regardless. I would just like to know exactly what organization I am joining. It will be better if the paying members know what's going on from the beginning. So, please give us the rest of the story."

V**********
"frequent lurker, infrequent poster"






ce***********
10/11/06 07:09 PM (#89)








"I can't log in to the gopesa board so I don't know if any of my issues would have been addressed there."

Don't worry you're not missing a whole lot over there!

JH






en**********
10/11/06 08:08 PM (#90)








I agree with Jo*******, I will pay the dues regardless. I would easily pay $20/month just to be able to read the message board during my coffee break.

There are some valid questions however that should be answered. Assuming we end up with 1000 paying members I think it would be imperative to the success of this organization to be transparent regarding PeSA finances. I also believe there should be more disclosure regarding the meeting with eBay, the ECMTA, and the general direction of PeSA as the BOD sees it. During the years that I have been a member here the BOD has often taken a somewhat elitist attitude of "we know best". I hope this is not taken out of context as my opinion/relationship of/with all Board Members is very good.

Pri*****: You posted: "Jeesh! There was nothing about Joe's vision at the summit. It was all about how all these cool concepts could impact my business and how I could adapt them. I missed the part about about Joe's vision."

Even though I could not attend the most recent Summit due to a conflict of interest (I did attend Atlanta and Austin) I am sure that the SF Summit was full of "cool concepts". Adam, Phil and their team of volunteers are absolutely brilliant when it comes to planning, organizing and executing the PeSA Summits. But I have to remind the folks here (not sure if you were here then) that it was less than 9 months ago that Joe Cortese implied that he wanted to fully merge PeSA into the eBay organization. Joe was even able to get Jay (who in my opinion is one of the most honest, knowledgable, and independent thinkers within PeSA) to write a long post as to why there was no longer any need for PeSA. Had the membership not overwhelmingly disagreed with that plan we may not have even had a Fall Summit. Now, I do tremendously respect Joe Cortese for having had the insight and courage to form this incredible organization but I WOULD like to know the agenda (and there IS an agenda). If that agenda involves Joe as a paid Chairman of this organization (be it PeSA or ECMTA) I may actually support it! I just want to know what the "roadmap" is because (IMO) there IS a roadmap - it just hasn't been fully disclosed to the general membership.

So, should we pay dues? ABSOLUTELY YES! Have we had the transparency required from an organization that has 1000 members paying $240/yr/ ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Regards,

Da**********

pri*********
10/11/06 11:39 PM (#91)








Da*********,

Thank you for this carefully crafted clarification. I greatly appreciate your putting this discussion into a historical context as well as the additional insights.

You are right. I was not here 6 months ago, and your viewpoint is perhaps what I was looking for at the root of the issue. As always, there are two sides to every story...some are simply articulated better than others. I have put this onto my 13th brain cell for germination.

Ju*******






joefriday2
10/12/06 12:26 AM (#92)








The way it was explained to me is that PESA will continue to be the trade group for the high volume sellers.

ECMTA is a trade group for all online sellers. ECMTA does not restrict their membership to just high volume sellers. I got the impression that ECMTA will take anyone that wants to pay dues and is interested in online selling.

Of course, I have not seen any ECMTA by-laws or real information about ECMTA so it is difficult to understand what they are up to.

I do agree with those calling for proper tax filings, proper bylaws and general organizational structure for PESA. There is no question that this has been lacking at best. However, this "sloppiness" has much to do with the lack of money because membership dues have not been collected. It's just hard to do things without proper funding.

I also question the qualifications of those putting together ECMTA. So far, PESA has not been organized properly by these same folks.

Based upon the lack of proper PESA structure, after 3 years in PESA, I have seen nothing that would indicate that they are able, or even qualified to put an organization together such as ECMTA.

You must remember that PESA grew out of an eBay bulletin board that was used by high volume sellers. No one had any idea that PESA would grow into a trade organization. I'll cut the organizers some slack on PESA just because of the circumstances and the lack of funding. But, ECMTA should have been ready to go (properly formed, by-laws, directors, etc,) prior to it being announced.

Ben






ce***********
10/12/06 12:58 AM (#93)








Great points Ben.

JH






sho***********
10/12/06 01:22 AM (#94)








Without hearing anything from the BOD so far. I am concerned these membership fees are to support the new ECMTA. I don't think we will see any improvement or benefits in PeSA.

Ra*********






joefriday2
10/12/06 02:07 AM (#95)








Ra**********,

I think the 501©3 corporation will stop them from co-mingling funds from PESA and ECMTA. The IRS does not have a sense of humor about these types of things.

I do see a potential conflict of interest if the two organizations have the same board members or the same Executive Director. Of course ECMTA has not announced their board or their Executive Director.

We may not see any improvement or benefits in PESA, but even if we don't, it's still worth the $99. But, I'm betting that with some money and proper organization, PESA will have the resources to put things together. If they don't get it together, we can just refuse to pay dues the second year and vote with our feet. I'm willing to give them 12 months to get their act together.

My biggest goals would be as follows:

1. Get the by-laws in proper form with an appointed by-law committee. Steve Grossberg has volunteered to head this committee and I feel he will do a fine job. He thinks he can get this accomplished, with a committee, within 90 days.

2. Get the board expanded to at least eight members like other trade association boards. I personally do not feel that we are getting enough diversity on the PESA board.

Ben






mu***********
10/12/06 04:45 AM (#96)








Just for the record: I will pay $99, $240, or whatever it costs. As a member of the election committee, I have spent many hundred $ on endless ELCOM conference calls (calling in from Europe is a bit more expensive ), and so what? Over the years PESA has given me so much, I will never be able to reimburse this organization for what it has done for me. And despite of what some newbie says, I still can see JC's vision very clearly.

Certainly we do need a sharper set of bylaws. Should st******** head this committee? I am not so sure. I see others here who might do a good job as well.

Thank you Jonathan for the great news. Way to go. I am proud to be a PESAn.

Al********






1bu*********
10/12/06 04:57 AM (#97)








" I still can see JC's vision very clearly"

Can you sahre tha tvision with thos who might have missed it?






li***********
10/12/06 05:06 AM (#98)








I've been with PeSa since before the first summit and I still haven't seen any visions. Care to share?






1bu*********
10/12/06 05:11 AM (#99)








" Should st****** head this committee? I am not so sure. I see others here who might do a good job as well.

Should Al****** be on the Elcom? I am not sure as I see others here who might do a good job as well.






ba***********
10/12/06 05:35 AM (#100)








Wow, what a great dialog we have going here! It is great to see everyone's perspective and the collective call for accountability. PESA's strength lies in our diverse and dedicated membership.

As we work through this phase in PESA's growth please refrain from attacking fellow members. This is a very passionate area for all of us and I understand tensions can be high. Please remember to treat your fellow members with the same respect that you deserve and expect.


L******** -- Moderation Committee
__________________

[BellisimaJ.]

From TRS:

Here's what I've translated from all of this....

"I know people. ebay people. You can't get a piss stall next to Rob Chestnut for less than $1,000 on the open market. We're going to add up all your $99, meet with Rob and then come back and tell YOU all about it!"

"We don't know what we're going to do with the monies collected. We have to wait and see how many of you fools will send in your dues."

"How can you even ask where this organization is going? I'm not even going to justify that question with an answer."

"Pesa is a group of high volume sellers. If you can't afford $99 and not ask questions about how it's going to be spent, then we don't need or want you anywhere near us. Maybe when you learn to just bend over, take it and beg us to take your $99, you can come back into the fold. We might even speak to you again."
__________________