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***regic*** · 11-10-2006, 09:45 PM,

Quote:PESA has been a for profit entity since its inception.

It's been a for profit since its inception in 2003 yet they incorporated as a non-profit in 2005. :blinkie:

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 11:36 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:lar********
10/20/06 08:17 PM (#451)

Jonathan, thank you so much! I am excited about the direction PeSA is taking.

I'm off to see if a unique thread has been created regarding the quote from Jonathans post that T*** (fu***) posted.

I'm guessing that I still have to be approved by the membership committee...(I'm so confused)

Ha******

ge**********
10/20/06 08:49 PM (#452)

Jonathan, the bod and Joe C.,

I want to state that it appears you are finally going to make good on what was promised years ago and I am proud to see it happen. I cannot imagine the pressures and selfless debt you have incurred to get to this point.

Noble men indeed. Way to go.

Mi********

al********
10/20/06 08:59 PM (#453)

It was a nice surprise to see this post today and to see the new PESA site. My dues are paid and I'm looking forward to the changes ahead.

I noticed on the site the membership criteria has changed. I no longer see the 500 feedbacks in 30 days option. While this does not affect me, I do know it affects others on this board who qualified based on that option plus one other.

Will these people whom we have all gotten to know be a part of this new and improved PESA? I would hope anyone who has been a part of this group is not affected by this change.

Z********

al*******
10/20/06 09:05 PM (#454)

Correction: It's the 500 items listed option.

Z******

sho********
10/20/06 11:23 PM (#455)

Jonathan thanks for answering a couple of the questions raised. I have a couple more about the "First Benefits Below"

1. Professional Graphics Design services through our Partnership with ECMTA. This offer is first-come, first-served to members in good standing.
2. Deeply discounted insurance for your packages from U-Pic.
3. A special product sourcing offer from Doba.
4. PESAs own Prosper funding group.
5. Discounted printing services from Vista Print.

1. 1. Professional Graphics Design services through our Partnership with ECMTA. This offer is first-come, first-served to members in good standing.

There is a additional charge above an beyond our $99 dues for this service. It shows a charge of $49.00 a hour. How exactly is this consider a member benefit?

2. Deeply discounted insurance for your packages from U-Pic.
Any of us can obtain deep discount with U-Pic PeSA membership is not required. Again this is considered a PeSA member benefit?

5. Discounted printing services from Vista Print.

Again I get a lot of free printing services already from Vista so again no real member benefit.

JMHO,

Ra******

spo********
10/20/06 11:51 PM (#456)

Ra*******

It is the start of benefits to our membership. I jumped on #1, but am not really concerned about 2, 4 or 5. I'll see how 1 plays out. Frankly, I still don't care. $99 invested pays back.

Jonathan stepped to the plate and outlined a reasonable plan. I have no stock ownership, and am for what PeSA is doing. I do have intimate knowledge with the events committee, and do agree that we need some funds. Sponsors back out after the fact, and members are left holding the bag. That isn't fair. SF netted an amount enabling us to offset LV where that exact thing occurred.

How do you drive an organization forward without a stable balance in the account? Obviously, it can't be done without Joe and Jonathan fronting us money.

The more value-added to PeSA, the better for all of us (even if it does not benefit you individually). I am not going to pick apart the boards' accomplishments. There have been many, and we will hear from Jonathan as they are implemented. Or not, as they have non-disclosure agreements.

I have put in my two cents to the BOD regarding committees and by-laws, as well as our events. Their response is measured as it should be. I can tell you that they are listening.

T*****

mu********
10/21/06 01:27 AM (#457)

Excellent post. Thank you Jonathan, thank you Joe, thank you BOD.

Al********

lan*********
10/21/06 04:37 AM (#458)

Mr Stupid from Southport here

I can enter the Gopesa website, I can log in, change my profile etc.

I cannot see a link to the forums, yet I do know the page url, on trying to log in, it says I am not registered, so I request a reminder, again not registered.

So now I think Ha haaaaaaa, a new registration for the forum is required, but it is not accepting new registrations ?

So, how does Mr Stupid of Southport enter the GoPesa forum please ¿

lo********
10/21/06 04:42 AM (#459)

I cannot enter the gopesa.org site - so i guess this makes me NOT a member of PeSA.

Ch********

all*********
10/21/06 04:43 AM (#460)

Ra******,

Jonathan also stated "If you dont feel that you are getting any value from your participation in PESA, you shouldnt stay."

This is in on way mean to be offensive, but I don't think the BOD is going to change the benefits, discuss the merits of them or up the ante. I personally don't find that list all that appealing but I find being a part of this group well worth the dues. Given that, we'll all make a personal decision whether to stay or go. I think the questions have been answered as well as they are going to be and its time to make a choice.

Z*****
__________________

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 11:37 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:sho********
10/21/06 05:04 AM (#461)

"I think the questions have been answered as well as they are going to be and its time to make a choice."

I guess if members sit back and except no answers without any problem then I see why the BOD does not bother providing them.

"If you dont feel that you are getting any value from your participation in PESA, you shouldnt stay."

I have not yet made up my mind on staying. But I am still waiting for the unanswered questions to be answered. This is in regards to not only ECMTA but also information on the meeting with the BOD and eBay.

Ra******

emo********
10/21/06 05:29 AM (#462)

Ra***** wrote "But I am still waiting for the unanswered questions to be answered."

You have gotten all the answers you will ever get. Pesa is now a "for profit" organization, and it actually always has been, although it never made any profits. It used to be entirely owned by Joe, now it is owned by a group of individuals whose names and shares likely won't be announced for a long time, if ever. ECMTA is entirely owned by Jonathan.

The "benefits" are very similar to, and as good as those given by eBay to Titanium Powersellers. Any additional "benefits" are likely to be announced one year from now when the $240 comes due.

Like Ra******, I have not yet made up my mind on staying. I feel like paying the $99 just for continued access to this board, but I doubt I could possibly sit back and accept the doublespeak being dealt out weekly without commenting, and I imagine those views are not welcome in the new "for profit" Pesa. Quite a dilemma!

Br******

3r********
10/21/06 05:39 AM (#463)

Fantastic! I bow to the benifits, yeah. Lets put it on the water and see if it floats. Good job.

tig*******
10/21/06 07:43 AM (#464)

I wonder if some members experienced with the Doba drop-shipper (number 3 benefit) can provide us with a testimonial? Since it's a benefit of membership, is PESA itself endorsing Doba?

--B*******

rach********
10/21/06 08:26 AM (#465)

Jonathan, Joe, and the Board,

Thank you all, so much. I am very excited by the update that Jonathan provided, above, and by the prospect of an even better PeSA. You have all worked so hard to make this happen - along with dozens of volunteers on the committees, thanks to you all also! - and it's really coming together.

PeSA has already provided so much to it's members, most especially in the form of the contacts that we have access as members of this group. It seems to me that, with the dues component and a more formal communication structure, etc., PeSA will now be able to operate much more efficiently and more like the Board et. al. have always wanted. That is very exciting indeed.

Great job, everyone, great job.

Sincerely,
-J*****
rach*******

lo***********
10/21/06 08:39 AM (#466)

Just a thought here.........

First off, Thanks Jonathan! It ALL sounds good to me!
As soon as I am able to get into gopesa.com I will pay my dues immediately.

I hope that an email has been sent to everyone explaining this. As someone mentioned above, your post will be lost in this thread.

In an effort to get as many as possible to sign on and pay the dues an email or two should be sent to everyone.

Ch********

gothamcityonline
10/21/06 08:41 AM (#467)

A quick update; my post on the discussion forum was a preview for the members that visit here regularly. Next week, I will be sending an email and Joe will generate a newsletter to the rest of the PESA members that may not have seen the thread.

Thanks for the input.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

biggbill
10/21/06 10:15 AM (#468)

"Sponsors back out after the fact, and members are left holding the bag."

Who would this have been?

Thanks Jonathan.

So, if I understand this situation right...

Joe owns the "for Profit: PESA and might be passing out shares to people that helped him build it.

Jonathan owns the "for Profit" ECMTA that is described on its website as being:

"managed by a group of small business owners who excel in operational efficiency and logistics optimization. The group formed ECMTA to improve their relationships with vendors. By combining the resources of many small businesses, ECMTA can enjoy the premium service and price discounting from vendors that is otherwise only available to large businesses."

Is this a "buyers club" that you profit from what members would buy?

Do either Joe or you benefit from members using Prosper? It that something that is in the works?

Someone here does. They seem to get a free ride on the board spam.

Thanks for releasing the info Jonathan. I think you sold us out but you in good company.

Just my opinion.

Biggbill
Just Biggbill

emo********
10/23/06 06:06 PM (#469)

When is the deadline for paying dues, the time when those who do not pay become former Pesa members, and no longer have access to this discussion board? Or is that something that the BOD has either not set, or does not wish to reveal at this time?

Thanks!

Br********

go*******
10/23/06 07:06 PM (#470)

I think there are a number of people watching which way Br**** jumps on this one. (Did you know that you were so influential, Br******?) Quite a few familiar names not on the list so far...
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=6

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 11:39 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:1bu******
10/23/06 08:01 PM (#471)

Jonathan

Thanks for your thorough and detailed post. I just got back in from a 5 day mini vacation and had not had a chance to read the post and absorb it until now.

I personally really appreciate your candor and professionalism as well as your honesty, dedication, and enthusiasm.

Joe C is also deserving of a special thanks here. I know it was not easy to agree to hold only a minority ownership in PESA going forward. I believe his decision, although a tough one was the right decision for the benefit of the group and it being able to continue to flourish in the future.

Joe thank for you making this unselfish move.

Also Tom, David, and Adam obviously played a big role in getting all this accomplished.

Job well done guys!. I will be reviewing everything more thoroughly in the coming days once I get caught up from being away.

St*****

emo*********
10/23/06 08:04 PM (#472)

go*******

As the character Sollozo says to Michael Corleone in "The Godfather", "You think too much of me, kid"!

Whatever I do (staying or leaving) will not influence anyone here in the slightest as to whether they pay their $99 to the owners of the for-profit Pesa.

As to what I plan to do: Many times in my life I have done something that was not to my personal benefit, because I felt the principle involved was more important than my personal gain. Afterwards, some people have told me I was foolish to "stand of principle", but in retrospect I am glad I made those choices. And I can honestly say, this is starting to feel like one of those times.

I am having trouble getting past the fact that I joined a NON PROFIT group (and was reassured of that many times since), and now I am told it was never non-profit, and never will be. I know this means nothing to many of you, and surely rightly so. But each of us should follow our own conscience, and be true to ourselves, whatever the cost.

Whatever I decide, I certainly wish the best for all of you. I read that 80 Pesa members went "belly-up" this past year, so maybe this "new" For-Profit Pesa will be the catalyst to change that dreadful trend (of course I personally feel that cleaning up eBay would rapidly change this, but I feel certain pushing eBay to do this is very low on the new Pesa's priority list, if it is there at all).

If anyone ever actually does start a NON-PROFIT group for top eBay sellers (or simply a discussion board), please let me know! Thanks.

Br********

sho********
10/23/06 08:53 PM (#473)

"If anyone ever actually does start a NON-PROFIT group for top eBay sellers (or simply a discussion board), please let me know! Thanks".

I would also be very interested in this.

Ra******

aa********
10/23/06 09:18 PM (#474)

Br****,

"If anyone ever actually does start a NON-PROFIT group for top eBay sellers (or simply a discussion board), please let me know!"

As someone who has gone through the non-profit process, it's not that easy, unfortunately. No one just "starts" a non-profit group or organization. You start an organization; then you apply for non-profit status; then 99 times out of 100, you get rejected and the government provides a list of things you need to do; then you try to implement the list; the you apply again; then you will probably get rejected again; and the game continues ad nauseum. In the very best of circumstances, it is a long, difficult process full of red-tape and paperwork. The government does this for a reason... they don't want just anyone receiving non-profit (ie. tax free) status.

Organizations that are purely philanthropic still often struggle to acquire non-profit status, so I'm not at all surprised that PeSA has had a tough time. Keep in mind, there is a TON of paperwork involved. This means that an organization either has to pay someone a considerable amount of money to deal with itk, or they have to spend a great deal of time dealing with it themselves. Large resources of time and money are not things that PeSA has ever had.

All this to say, I think your concept of this whole non-profit issue might change a little once you see everything that goes into acquiring it. The way I see it, PeSA had always intended to be non-profit, but bureaucratic obstacles have rendered that difficult-to-near-impossible. The process just isn't nearly as simple as you may think, so I hope you factor that into your decision to go or stay. In light of the factors I've outlined, I'm just not sure what principles you'd be standing on by leaving.

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that your absence would be a huge loss for PeSA. Fortunately, I think PeSA has positioned itself so that it will be just fine even if it loses a number of fine people such as yourself; but it will, of course, be even better with you.

An*******

It was a long process and a lot of work, but OAUA had it, and OAUA was a very similar organization in terms of general mission. - TR

spo********
10/23/06 09:19 PM (#475)

This is interesting. I am a fairly new member. If we dump this platform, what good does it do? It harms us. Br***, you are a longstanding and respected member. I know that no one is making money with our endeavor. Do we expect them to in the future with a depleted membership?

$100 per year, or $240 is MUCH less than any group I have ever joined. Not as an official EVCOM statement, but as an EVCOM planner, you don't know how we will spend $10K, let alone $30K.

So it goes to profiteering. I know for a fact that is not happening. If we cannot register as a non-profit, we can state it in our by-laws that we are not-for-profit.

I am for your wishes. Polly can't handle it on her own. Join a new Finance Committee, then give your 2 cents.

I am sick and tired of this debate. Our strong members shouldn't complain about $100 dues. There should be accountability, and they would be the best to assure it.

Sincerely,
T*******

sho*******
10/23/06 09:29 PM (#476)

T**********

I saw this question asked of you earlier in this discussion. Since you are 100% behind the dues can you elaborate on this comment?

"Sponsors back out after the fact, and members are left holding the bag."

Ra*******

spo**********
10/23/06 09:49 PM (#477)

Ra********:

I have helped plan two events. It happened at the PeSA event in LV. Both the lounge (covered by FedEx for the most part, several us picked up the residual tab), but primarily the poker tourney. Our sponsors were there in force in San Francisco and covered their obligations for the most part.

The board will have to explain events further. Sponsors were solicited, and didn't pay. That is why I feel the neccesity of a Sponsorship Committee.

T*****

sho*********
10/23/06 10:12 PM (#478)

T****-
Your answer did bring up a follow up question. The short coming in sponsor funds was at the eBay Live PeSA Poker Tournament? If I remember correctly everyone had to pay to attend this PeSA Poker event? Should that not have covered the costs?

Ra******

sho******
10/23/06 10:16 PM (#479)

T*****-
In fact I believe you had to pay even to be in the audience. Where did all that money go? Should it not have been used for the expenses you say were put out by you and others?

Ra******

sho*******
10/23/06 10:25 PM (#480)

Also if you are saying a sponsor promised money and received the benefits then backed out afterwards. Then left you and others with the bill. I for one would like to know who this was so I can take my business elsewhere.
JMHO,

Ra******
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=6

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 11:43 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:spo*********
10/23/06 10:51 PM (#481)

Ra****:

You have asked for transparency. I provided it. I am a volunteer that spends hudreds of hours planning events for your benefit. I am finding your questioning antagonistic. I receive nothing in return for my efforts. This is a community based organization.

Sincerely,
T****

joefriday2
10/23/06 11:31 PM (#482)

Ra*****,

The poker tournament in Las Vegas was produced by an events company that puts these poker tournaments on. That is why it looked so professional.

In the end, the bill from the events company was more than was taken in on entry fees, sponsor fees and audience fees.

So the poker tournament was a money losing event for PESA.

It really is that simple.

As far as identifying what company didn't pay their sponsorship fees, that is going to be difficult and unlawful to disclose.

As much as many of us would like, you can not go around publishing names of folks that don't pay their bills. There are laws against that.

In addition, the sponsorship agreements tend to be somewhat loose and they are not going to be enforced in court by PESA or most other folks that deal with sponsors.

Ben

ce*********
10/23/06 11:54 PM (#483)

Great post An******

Please be realistic here, Br****. Sure things could have been handled better or presented differently, but I don't think you can honestly say that anyone was twisting your arm or "sold" you on joining PESA by claiming it was a non-profit. I doubt the organization's tax status or lack thereof was a primary reason you joined. I also don't think there is any evidence that it was set up with anything less than the best of intentions and any goal other than becoming a non-profit.

I appreciate your willingness to stand up for principles, but I am not convinced that any principles have been violated due to the profit / non-profit distinction. Hopefully after reflecting upon this situation, you will decide to remain a contributing member of PESA.

JH

sho********
10/24/06 03:39 AM (#484)

Br***** Wrote:
"I feel like paying the $99 just for continued access to this board, but I doubt I could possibly sit back and accept the doublespeak being dealt out weekly without commenting, and I imagine those views are not welcome in the new "for profit" Pesa."

This appears to be correct. I have obviously asked to many questions and like some others actually expect them to be answered.
JMHO,

Randy

sho*********
10/24/06 03:59 AM (#485)

If all that is wanted is a bunch of members that keep quite, don't ask tough questions, expect no answers, pony up dues, pony up your name in order for the BOD to get meetings with eBay them keep every part of that meeting secret. Then I guess maybe this is not the place for me. Maybe that is all you will have left in PeSA. I am sure it won't be long before the membership requirements are relaxed. Everyone that is willing to pony up dues will be welcome. Because as many in this post are saying Dues paying members are much more important than all us free members.
JMHO,

Ra*********

emo*******
10/24/06 04:31 AM (#486)

I am not asking anyone to NOT join up because of my misgivings over how this organization has been represented at least since I joined. But please don't tell me that my feelings have no validity at all!

If I read it once, I read it one thousand times, "Pesa is a non-profit organization". An***** (no doubt rightfully) says that attaining non-profit status is very difficult. But I see no signs that ANY real attempt was made in this case. Given the lack of accounting for years (which surely would be required of any non-profit), I wonder if anyone involved in the supposed effort to get non-profit status was really making a sincere effort.

But OK, legal non-profit status was unattainable. But then why not turn over the organization to those volunteers who have devoted hundreds of hours to running it, people like Mi******l and L**** and Adam and lots of others? And why not have as the first sentence of a new "mission statement" that this new Pesa, while technically not a non-profit, would be committed to making sure all monies raised would go back into the organization, and be spent for the good of its membership? Why does not being able to qualify for non-profit status suddenly create the need for it to become a profit making organization (one that will take in a healthy $240,000 annually from its members after the first year, and perhaps an equal amount from its many sponsors)? And even with this massive change in goal and purpose there is still no sign of accounting or real transparency in how the organization is run. I believe that truly is putting the cart before the horse. I say FIRST get Pesa's house in order, and THEN charge dues.

You know the old story about how most of the people who made serious money from the California gold rush were not the miners themselves, but the people who sold them food and clothing and other essentials? That is especially true on eBay. I don't think you can show me even ONE seller who has made serious money actually selling on eBay, but I bet a lot of the off-shoot third party companies have done quite well (especially those that were able to con the public into putting up many millions of dollars for their publicly traded companies).

There is about to be another major "wave" of such companies, and there is a LOT of money at stake. Why? Because any eBay seller with any sense is rushing to create their own website, and to "get in" on the riches they think are available to those who multi-platform, selling on many sites, and in many different ways simultaneously.

And just like those gold miners, all these new multi-platform sellers will need lots of equipment and services, and most have little knowledge of how to sort out good from bad. And this is where I THOUGHT Pesa would come in. It would provide it members with an informational forum (kind of like Consumer Reports) where the members could come to share what they had learned about these third party providers, and how best to use them.

But instead, the "new" Pesa will provide a way to collect a very hefty overall fee for putting the sellers and the third party providers together. It has been clearly stated that one of the main benefits of the new Pesa is the access it provides to third party providers. And no doubt third party providers are being told that the main benefit of sponsoring Pesa is instant access to "one thousand" top eBay sellers.

It is all well and good to me for there to be an organization that does this, and were I given the opportunity to join such an organization that existed for this purpose, I might well join. But I AM personally offended that the organization I DID join (with very different clearly stated goals) has morphed into this very different organization, with very different goals.

That is my personal moral dilemma. I am not trying to convince any of you to feel as I do, and I am not asking any of you to try to convince me of your view (if it is different from mine). As I have said earlier, each of us should follow our own conscience, and be true to ourselves.

I would think the amount of "volunteerism" in the new for-profit Pesa will take a massive nose-dive, for I don't see non-owners spending lots of their free time building a organization that will make lots of money for others. I would think this lowered amount of volunteering will include this discussion board. I think members will be less inclined to post to help others with no personal gain, when the owners of this business very clearly do have "personal gain" first and foremost on their agenda. I also predict you will see lots more third party providers posting when there is an opportunity to promote their own businesses, as well they should in this new for-profit Pesa.

I really would like to see a completely separate free discussion board solely for the very top eBay sellers, one that has no fees or sponsors, so no one needs worry about "getting their money worth" from the board, or fear to criticize companies or products because they are "sponsors". I don't see that this would interfere with the goals of the new Pesa, but if it does, so what? If anyone starts such a forum, please let me know!

Thanks.

Br********

emo**********
10/24/06 04:38 AM (#487)

Ra**** wrote, "I am sure it won't be long before the membership requirements are relaxed. Everyone that is willing to pony up dues will be welcome."

Isn't this already happening? Isn't the "most exclusive" club in town suddenly not very exclusive at all? Is any eBay seller who sells any quantity of items who has $99 in their hand going to be turned away from the new "for-profit" Pesa?

Ra****, you and I are in the vast minority among those who post. But time will tell how many of the old membership goes along with this new Pesa and will join up. But even if few of them do, I doubt the owners of the new Pesa will care at all, as long as they are replaced by new dues paying members (albeit with lowered qualifications). But the "new" Pesa will surely be a "different" Pesa.

Br******

rt**********
10/24/06 04:54 AM (#488)

Br******* your points are valid, personally I will pay dues now and give the BOD a year to see if they can change things for the better. On the other hand as a dues paying member my expectations will be much higher than they were in the past.

Since PESA is not a non-profit I believe transparency and financial statements will be more important than ever to the future of PESA.

Ro*********

1bu*******
10/24/06 04:57 AM (#489)

After giving all this a little more thought I have some questions maybe Joe or Jonathan can answer.

1. Are there new by-laws that exist?

2. Will members elect the BOD to the new PESA or will shareholders elect the BOD

If shareholders have exclusive rights in any way (other then being passive shareholders) it is important to know the exact shareholders and percent each hold.

St*******

St*******

sho*************
10/24/06 05:07 AM (#490)

Br******* wrote-
"Isn't this already happening? Isn't the "most exclusive" club in town suddenly not very exclusive at all? Is any eBay seller who sells any quantity of items who has $99 in their hand going to be turned away from the new "for-profit" Pesa?"

I have noticed in the last few months a influx of new members with not many items and low feedback numbers (less than 100 in the last month). I guess now we know why. It was clearly to add numbers of members that would be willing to pay the dues.
JMHO,

Ra*******

BellisimaJ. · 11-11-2006, 01:55 AM,

fROM TRS:

Quote:spo*********
10/23/06 10:51 PM (#481)

Ra****:

You have asked for transparency. I provided it. I am a volunteer that spends hudreds of hours planning events for your benefit. I am finding your questioning antagonistic. I receive nothing in return for my efforts. This is a community based organization.

Sincerely,
T****

joefriday2
10/23/06 11:31 PM (#482)

Ra*****,

The poker tournament in Las Vegas was produced by an events company that puts these poker tournaments on. That is why it looked so professional.

In the end, the bill from the events company was more than was taken in on entry fees, sponsor fees and audience fees.

So the poker tournament was a money losing event for PESA.

It really is that simple.

As far as identifying what company didn't pay their sponsorship fees, that is going to be difficult and unlawful to disclose.

As much as many of us would like, you can not go around publishing names of folks that don't pay their bills. There are laws against that.

In addition, the sponsorship agreements tend to be somewhat loose and they are not going to be enforced in court by PESA or most other folks that deal with sponsors.

Ben

ce*********
10/23/06 11:54 PM (#483)

Great post An******

Please be realistic here, Br****. Sure things could have been handled better or presented differently, but I don't think you can honestly say that anyone was twisting your arm or "sold" you on joining PESA by claiming it was a non-profit. I doubt the organization's tax status or lack thereof was a primary reason you joined. I also don't think there is any evidence that it was set up with anything less than the best of intentions and any goal other than becoming a non-profit.

I appreciate your willingness to stand up for principles, but I am not convinced that any principles have been violated due to the profit / non-profit distinction. Hopefully after reflecting upon this situation, you will decide to remain a contributing member of PESA.

JH

sho********
10/24/06 03:39 AM (#484)

Br***** Wrote:
"I feel like paying the $99 just for continued access to this board, but I doubt I could possibly sit back and accept the doublespeak being dealt out weekly without commenting, and I imagine those views are not welcome in the new "for profit" Pesa."

This appears to be correct. I have obviously asked to many questions and like some others actually expect them to be answered.
JMHO,

Randy

sho*********
10/24/06 03:59 AM (#485)

If all that is wanted is a bunch of members that keep quite, don't ask tough questions, expect no answers, pony up dues, pony up your name in order for the BOD to get meetings with eBay them keep every part of that meeting secret. Then I guess maybe this is not the place for me. Maybe that is all you will have left in PeSA. I am sure it won't be long before the membership requirements are relaxed. Everyone that is willing to pony up dues will be welcome. Because as many in this post are saying Dues paying members are much more important than all us free members.
JMHO,

Ra*********

emo*******
10/24/06 04:31 AM (#486)

I am not asking anyone to NOT join up because of my misgivings over how this organization has been represented at least since I joined. But please don't tell me that my feelings have no validity at all!

If I read it once, I read it one thousand times, "Pesa is a non-profit organization". An***** (no doubt rightfully) says that attaining non-profit status is very difficult. But I see no signs that ANY real attempt was made in this case. Given the lack of accounting for years (which surely would be required of any non-profit), I wonder if anyone involved in the supposed effort to get non-profit status was really making a sincere effort.

But OK, legal non-profit status was unattainable. But then why not turn over the organization to those volunteers who have devoted hundreds of hours to running it, people like Mi******l and L**** and Adam and lots of others? And why not have as the first sentence of a new "mission statement" that this new Pesa, while technically not a non-profit, would be committed to making sure all monies raised would go back into the organization, and be spent for the good of its membership? Why does not being able to qualify for non-profit status suddenly create the need for it to become a profit making organization (one that will take in a healthy $240,000 annually from its members after the first year, and perhaps an equal amount from its many sponsors)? And even with this massive change in goal and purpose there is still no sign of accounting or real transparency in how the organization is run. I believe that truly is putting the cart before the horse. I say FIRST get Pesa's house in order, and THEN charge dues.

You know the old story about how most of the people who made serious money from the California gold rush were not the miners themselves, but the people who sold them food and clothing and other essentials? That is especially true on eBay. I don't think you can show me even ONE seller who has made serious money actually selling on eBay, but I bet a lot of the off-shoot third party companies have done quite well (especially those that were able to con the public into putting up many millions of dollars for their publicly traded companies).

There is about to be another major "wave" of such companies, and there is a LOT of money at stake. Why? Because any eBay seller with any sense is rushing to create their own website, and to "get in" on the riches they think are available to those who multi-platform, selling on many sites, and in many different ways simultaneously.

And just like those gold miners, all these new multi-platform sellers will need lots of equipment and services, and most have little knowledge of how to sort out good from bad. And this is where I THOUGHT Pesa would come in. It would provide it members with an informational forum (kind of like Consumer Reports) where the members could come to share what they had learned about these third party providers, and how best to use them.

But instead, the "new" Pesa will provide a way to collect a very hefty overall fee for putting the sellers and the third party providers together. It has been clearly stated that one of the main benefits of the new Pesa is the access it provides to third party providers. And no doubt third party providers are being told that the main benefit of sponsoring Pesa is instant access to "one thousand" top eBay sellers.

It is all well and good to me for there to be an organization that does this, and were I given the opportunity to join such an organization that existed for this purpose, I might well join. But I AM personally offended that the organization I DID join (with very different clearly stated goals) has morphed into this very different organization, with very different goals.

That is my personal moral dilemma. I am not trying to convince any of you to feel as I do, and I am not asking any of you to try to convince me of your view (if it is different from mine). As I have said earlier, each of us should follow our own conscience, and be true to ourselves.

I would think the amount of "volunteerism" in the new for-profit Pesa will take a massive nose-dive, for I don't see non-owners spending lots of their free time building a organization that will make lots of money for others. I would think this lowered amount of volunteering will include this discussion board. I think members will be less inclined to post to help others with no personal gain, when the owners of this business very clearly do have "personal gain" first and foremost on their agenda. I also predict you will see lots more third party providers posting when there is an opportunity to promote their own businesses, as well they should in this new for-profit Pesa.

I really would like to see a completely separate free discussion board solely for the very top eBay sellers, one that has no fees or sponsors, so no one needs worry about "getting their money worth" from the board, or fear to criticize companies or products because they are "sponsors". I don't see that this would interfere with the goals of the new Pesa, but if it does, so what? If anyone starts such a forum, please let me know!

Thanks.

Br********

emo**********
10/24/06 04:38 AM (#487)

Ra**** wrote, "I am sure it won't be long before the membership requirements are relaxed. Everyone that is willing to pony up dues will be welcome."

Isn't this already happening? Isn't the "most exclusive" club in town suddenly not very exclusive at all? Is any eBay seller who sells any quantity of items who has $99 in their hand going to be turned away from the new "for-profit" Pesa?

Ra****, you and I are in the vast minority among those who post. But time will tell how many of the old membership goes along with this new Pesa and will join up. But even if few of them do, I doubt the owners of the new Pesa will care at all, as long as they are replaced by new dues paying members (albeit with lowered qualifications). But the "new" Pesa will surely be a "different" Pesa.

Br******

rt**********
10/24/06 04:54 AM (#488)

Br******* your points are valid, personally I will pay dues now and give the BOD a year to see if they can change things for the better. On the other hand as a dues paying member my expectations will be much higher than they were in the past.

Since PESA is not a non-profit I believe transparency and financial statements will be more important than ever to the future of PESA.

Ro*********

1bu*******
10/24/06 04:57 AM (#489)

After giving all this a little more thought I have some questions maybe Joe or Jonathan can answer.

1. Are there new by-laws that exist?

2. Will members elect the BOD to the new PESA or will shareholders elect the BOD

If shareholders have exclusive rights in any way (other then being passive shareholders) it is important to know the exact shareholders and percent each hold.

St*******

St*******

sho*************
10/24/06 05:07 AM (#490)

Br******* wrote-
"Isn't this already happening? Isn't the "most exclusive" club in town suddenly not very exclusive at all? Is any eBay seller who sells any quantity of items who has $99 in their hand going to be turned away from the new "for-profit" Pesa?"

I have noticed in the last few months a influx of new members with not many items and low feedback numbers (less than 100 in the last month). I guess now we know why. It was clearly to add numbers of members that would be willing to pay the dues.
JMHO,

Ra*******

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?p=...post126134

BellisimaJ. · 11-11-2006, 01:56 AM,

FROM TRS:

Quote:sho*******
10/24/06 05:10 AM (#491)

Br****** wrote-
"Isn't this already happening? Isn't the "most exclusive" club in town suddenly not very exclusive at all? Is any eBay seller who sells any quantity of items who has $99 in their hand going to be turned away from the new "for-profit" Pesa?"

I have noticed in the last few months a influx of new members with not many items and low feedback numbers (less than 100 in the last month). I guess now we know why. It was clearly to add numbers of members that would be willing to pay the dues.

If any member questions this just look at some of the members that visited today.

Ra********

lar**********
10/24/06 06:23 AM (#492)

I was about to share some thoughts regarding post 490. However, Br****, after reading post 491, I don't feel qualified to respond.

Ha******

scotrover
10/24/06 06:23 AM (#493)

On the sponsorship topic within this topic - for the record I wanted to make it clear to everyone that CA was a sponsor and we did follow-through with our commitment on that.

Scot

ce********
10/24/06 06:30 AM (#494)

Ha******, you have almost 350 feedback in the last month. I don't think you should take Ra*****'s post in reference to you.

JH

sho*******
10/24/06 06:32 AM (#495)

"Hallie, you have almost 350 feedback in the last month. I don't think you should take Ra*****'s post in reference to you."

Ha*****, this was not in reference to you. Please post your comments.

Ra********

jayandmarie
10/24/06 06:33 AM (#496)

QUOTE: I was about to share some thoughts regarding post 490. However, Br*****, after reading post 491, I don't feel qualified to respond.

Please respond, Ha******. The poster in #491 clearly does not know many grouop members and their selling IDs.

How about that low-feedback poster in #493. Who let HIM in?

JAY

jayandmarie
10/24/06 06:35 AM (#497)

QUOTE: Ha****, this was not in reference to you.

Ra******, you want the group to 'out' the non-paying sponsors. Similarly, please tell me exactly who you are referring to in your post #491? I've got the list of members here in front of me: which ones are you talking about?

JAY

sho*******
10/24/06 06:35 AM (#498)

Come on Jay. I am not referring to Scot.

I don't know many of these new members do you?

Ra*******

sho********
10/24/06 06:53 AM (#499)

Jay-
The post about sponsors:
I don't think the volunteer members should have to put out there own money when it was clearly a sponsor who did not pay.
In regards to the members I was referencing:
I don't have to answer these questions because you can obtain the information you are requesting by clicking on members <--- over there.

Can you say the same for finding any info about PeSA funding / finances / costs? This is why the questions were asked.

BTW Jay I have really enjoyed reading a lot of your posts over the years.

Ra*******

co**********
10/24/06 07:01 AM (#500)

Well I may never come to the bottom of this mystery but I just have to question the new member sign-up count currently at 44.

That sure didn't kick off like wild-fire.

If I have had a chance I would like to lower my number on the guess how many PESA members will join contest.

Where is that new free discussion board located at ?

K*******

BellisimaJ. · 11-11-2006, 01:58 AM,

FROM TRS:

Quote:adamhersh
10/24/06 07:02 AM (#501)

Hi all,

The BOD has agreed that Jonathan will make weekly posts on this thread regarding the organization on behalf of us, however we're starting to get into my territory (events), so I wanted to quickly clear something up before it gets out of control.

There aren't sponsors that haven't "followed-through". Event planning is a multi-step process. The Events Committee proposes a budget to the BOD based on the projected sponsor funding. Several potential sponsors decided not to sponsor late in the game leaving us under-budget. There were no sponsor contracts broken.

I'm writing this so everybody knows all our current and past sponsors are in good standing.

-Adam Hersh
Events Committee Chairman

bi*******
10/24/06 07:06 AM (#502)

Thank you Adam for clearing that up
Glen

emo*******
10/24/06 07:14 AM (#503)

Scot wrote, "On the sponsorship topic within this topic - for the record I wanted to make it clear to everyone that CA was a sponsor and we did follow-through with our commitment on that."

Anyone know where Pesa can get 100 (or even one!) more sponsors like Scot? He posts huge volumes of interesting material not related to his business, and he keeps "tooting his own horn" to a bare minimum. He clearly has access to lots of great semi-inside info that he freely shares. If anyone here traded eBay stock on his advice, one would have made a fortune, for he exactly called eBay's fall to $23, and then he correctly forecasted a sharp turn-around from that point, due to increased earnings.

Ha*******

Please do post your thoughts, even if you completely disagree with me. As you know, I have been a supporter of yours from your first post. To me, you are the model of what a new Pesa member should be, just as Scot is the model of what a sponsor should be.

I just don't see how the "new" Pesa, with its "make money first" objective is likely to attract more Scots and Ha******. Most likely it will attract those who want to attach the supposed "exclusive" Pesa logo to their auctions, and will gladly pay $99 to do so, and sponsors who want to market their products to a captive group of top sellers. It is too bad if this turns out to be the case, but eventually we may have another discussion board to fall back on.

Br******

lan********
10/24/06 07:39 AM (#504)

When I was invited to join Pesa I opted for 'affiliate; status, why because even though the trading ID of auc****** would qualify on its own, its a UK only packaging seller, this group is mostly US sellers.

If I used my auc**** ID, as I occasionaly do on ebay.co.uk forums, many see my posts as 'self promotion' or advertising, similarily my auc***** ID, so I chose to use my lan******* ID, and remain fairly neutral, OK my About Me page is a dead give away, but hey, who clicks About Me pages

Pesa was 'sold' to me as a great medium for networking, indeed it is, and by following the many interesting topics discussed here, making myself known where possible or practicle, I feel I have networked with a few Pesa members, which is good for me, and maybe good for business, but thats what Pesa is about for me ... 'networking'

If I can help or advise I can and do, if it benefts others, excellent, if a I get a business spin off, excellent also, if it now costs me 99 bucks to to be here, then so be it, its worth it just for the entertainment value on many accasions

lar*******
10/24/06 07:41 AM (#505)

I posted one of my infamous "emotion first", logic later posts. You all, thank you for the positive responses.

I'm reading back thru so that I can post a rational response. I hope other people find my outbursts half way entertaining...because I'm good at those "fly off the handle" reactions (working on minimizing those, I promise).

Br*******, you are 100% correct. You have been extremely wonderful to talk with here on this board, and VERY supportive. I owe you an appology for my reactive post.

Now to get back to reality...and the real concerns. As a new member, I DON'T want to see sellers such as Br****** go. And I'm struggling with understanding why the choice might be made to not participate in a PeSA that collects membership dues. I know there is a lot of history here that, as a new member, I can't possibly understand. However, I think $99 is so little money, I hope to see these sellers give PeSA to the end of 2007 to see what may happen, and make a final decision at that time.

I can see that transparency and communication seem to have been the number one issues. And I agree that these are very real concerns. My hope is that PeSA, now having funds to work with, will use some of these funds to pay for services that free up the time of the BOD and committee members, with one of the primary goals being time to communicate consistently with the members.

I honestly believe that as a dues collecting organization, PeSA is going to step up to the plate on these issues. Why? Because you can't maintain long term dues paying members without transparency and communication. Not unless you adopt the eBay attitude of "there's more of you where you came from...", which I don't foresee PeSA doing, as it would take the credibility right out of the organization (just as that attitude is causing eBay serious credibility issues).

Ha*****

lo*******
10/24/06 07:56 AM (#506)

Ha******,
Have you been able to get into gopesa and pay yet?

I have not been able to so far. I believe there is 9 of us posted to that one thread ($891) so far.

Ch****

lan********
10/24/06 08:00 AM (#507)

Ch******,

If you have the correct gopesa email and password, for some reason it may not work first or second time, but very often does at the third login attempt ?

E******

all********
10/24/06 08:01 AM (#508)

I'd like to share a few comments....

I get a little nervous when I see the "these people don't belong here" posts. As a member for less than 3 months I get the feeling I was let in for "numbers" purposes. Whether its true or not, I don't know. When I think about it logically, I DO qualify based on the new criteria and all that, but I guess the "ambiance" in here makes me a little jumpy and a little aprehensive.

That said, I thoroughly enjoy this board and the people on it. I paid my $99 but I have to be honest and say if the "big" sellers leave, I'll follow.

I will also say that if this turns into a Powerseller board, I will forfeit my $99 and leave altogether. I would hope this is not the case and remain hopefuly it will not happen.

I don't have the history many of you have with PESA and I don't know the ins and outs. I have gotten to know some of you and am impressed by this great group of people. I hope this all works out in the end.

Z******

sho********
10/24/06 08:01 AM (#509)

Ch******-

Don't hold you breath on a answer about getting into the GoPeSA site. Although enticing them with the $891 in lost dues may help.

Ra******

aa*******
10/24/06 08:24 AM (#510)

Z******,

I've been here since the early days and I can tell you that these "crises" tend to happen around here every few months. Things will eventually return to normal, and I can assure you from past experience that this will never turn into another PS board.

Also keep in mind that it's the same couple of people who keep questioning whether some new members belong here, and those couple of members seem to be set on stirring up as much trouble as possible on their way out the door. Just ignore it. If the BOD were really trying to increase membership in order to "pad the coffers", there would be A LOT more members then there are right now. If you're here, you deserve to be here. Period.

An******
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?p=...post126134

BellisimaJ. · 11-11-2006, 01:59 AM,

FROM TRS:

Quote:aa*******
10/24/06 08:26 AM (#511)

"I have obviously asked to many questions and like some others actually expect them to be answered"

I think it was the spirit in which they were asked that's the issue. JMHO.

An*******

sho******
10/24/06 08:31 AM (#512)

"I can assure you from past experience that this will never turn into another PS board".

Money has a strange way of changing things.
I would be willing to make a wager that once the owners of PeSA get a taste of what PeSA could be with more money. You will see those seller requirements slowly disappear. The only requirements that will remain will be the dues.
JMHO,

Ra*****

aa*********
10/24/06 08:33 AM (#513)

Br*****,

"I just don't see how the "new" Pesa, with its "make money first" objective..."

Can you elaborate on this. I'm not seeing any evidence that the objective of PeSA has become or is becoming to "make money first". Am I missing something?

An*******

aa*********
10/24/06 08:34 AM (#514)

"I would be willing to make a wager..."

O.K., I'll call. What's the wager? What's the timeline? Who else wants in?

An*******

emo*******
10/24/06 08:46 AM (#515)

An********

So far we have heard from the Board of the dues, and the vital need for money. Anything else I have read is more ephemeral, and won't be dealt with until after the first round of dues are paid. What objectives do YOU think come before this?

Br*******

theco**********
10/24/06 08:50 AM (#516)

Ra******,

Take a look at my feedback. At first glance I am sure that I am one of those non-deserving members that you are referring to. The reality is that I am a Titanium seller who has been selling here for more than 6 years. I am pretty sure that my monthly sales would put me in the top 10% of this group.

When we, the membership committee, worked really hard trying to figure out what was fair to set as the standard there were a lot of things to consider. Hence the 4 metrics with a need to hit at least two of them. Feedback is only one metric that is used.

N*******

aa*******
10/24/06 08:57 AM (#517)

Br*******,

I appreciate your response. I always saw PeSA as a group that would one day charge dues. I think it's quite necessary, and I know that a number of other PeSAns have been pushing for it for quite some time. The fact that PeSA is finally charging dues (and is explaining why) is not evidence, IMO, that the BOD has suddenly become "all about money". Your post seemed to be stating it as fact, which is why I questioned you. I thought maybe you had some de facto proof that I had missed. I think we're just interpreting things very differently.

An*******

sho*********
10/24/06 08:57 AM (#518)

At first glance I am sure that I am one of those non-deserving members that you are referring to.

I never said anyone was non deserving members.

When we, the membership committee, worked really hard trying to figure out what was fair to set as the standard there were a lot of things to consider. Hence the 4 metrics with a need to hit at least two of them. Feedback is only one metric that is used.

In my post I stated members with VERY FEW ITEMS and low feedback (less than 100 in the last month.)

Sorry if you took this as an attack on you.

Ra********

thecol************
10/24/06 09:04 AM (#519)

Ra******,
I didn't take it as an attack at all, sorry if it came accross that way. I just meant to say that there are other things to consider than feedback. I missed your comment about very few items AND low feedback.
N*******

lo********
10/24/06 09:27 AM (#520)

When I first heard of PeSA, most likely from the PS board - I thought PeSA DID charge dues! When I was invited in here I was expecting to pay dues, then found out different, then found out different yet again!

Either way, If I could pay the dues I would. I have already learned from everyone here - far more than the cost of membership.

Ch*****
__________________

BellisimaJ. · 11-11-2006, 02:02 AM,

FROM TRS:

Quote:sho******
10/24/06 09:33 AM (#521)

Ch******-

"When I was invited in here"

Did you actually get a invite to join this group. I thought the only way to join was by filling out a application. I did not know they sent out invites to members. I know you more than qualify for this group but I question if they were sending out invites to increase the membership.

Ra*****

aa********
10/24/06 09:42 AM (#522)

Ra******,

Of course they're trying to increase the membership! If people qualify, who cares? That's what PeSA's all about. I think most of us were invited here... I know I was, and that was years ago. So what? Do you expect PeSA to never grow?

Additionally, you have yet to provide a single example of a PeSA member who doesn't qualify, and you have yet to respond to my response to your proposed wager. If you're going to make all these claims and insinuations, you should 1) provide some examples, and 2) put your money where your mouth is

An********

sho***********
10/24/06 09:44 AM (#523)

"PeSA member who doesn't qualify"
"If you're going to make all these claims and insinuations you should 1) provide some examples, and 2) put your money where your mouth is"

Just curious my mouth may be running where did I say this?

Ra*******

co*********
10/24/06 09:45 AM (#524)

I see members listed at 985. At this point 46 new members have declared payment.

That is 4.6 %

I am missing something here ?

Isn't the $99 new membership special for the end of this month only ? Is this going to all bust open in the final seconds ?

At this point it looks like a membership drive might be in order. I'm not sure but isn't it difficult to hold a event without some numbers to offer for attendance ?

K*****

lo*******
10/24/06 09:53 AM (#525)

The membership just as gotten to 47 paid members now according to that one thread (there may be others that simply did not post) I just became a paid member of Pesa!

So now it is official I get to use this:

target='_blank'>

PesaMember

Ch********

lo*********
10/24/06 09:53 AM (#526)

oops...maybe that html is incorrect.

Ch*******

sho********
10/24/06 09:59 AM (#527)

Congrats Ch******-
I am glad they finally got you access to the GoPeSA site.
I told you when you enticed them with the lost dues they would respond...

Ra*******

aa*******
10/24/06 10:00 AM (#528)

Ra******

"where did I say this?"

You are kidding, right? Post #491 is just one example...

"I have noticed in the last few months a influx of new members with not many items and low feedback numbers (less than 100 in the last month). I guess now we know why."

When challenged by Jay to provide examples, you refused.

Then, you went on to "wager" that membership qualifications would be eventually be eliminated altogether once dues were implemented. When I tried to take you up on the wager, you did not reply.

I'm sensing a pattern here...

"my mouth may be running"

Yeah, that's it

An*******

sho*********
10/24/06 10:06 AM (#529)

An*******-
Go look at the members for your self. It should not be hard to figure it out. This information is available to all members. Can you now point me to the location of where I can get the answers to my questions? Oh, yeah that's right that information is all secret and not available to the members.

"I'm sensing a pattern here"

Me too!

Ra*******

all*******
10/24/06 10:36 AM (#530)

If the purpose of this "questioning" about new members is to make them feel like carp - I am sure you have succeeded.

Z********

Hey sho*********** Just apologize for making a jackass statement, dude. Sheesh!
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?p=...post126134