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BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:48 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:emo********
10/16/06 10:57 AM (#311)

K*******

Why do YOU think the BOD has no communication with its members, except through cryptic messages? Do you think that furthers the organization? Do YOU think it is asking too much merely to know who owns what originally started out as a non-profit organization and has now morphed into a subsidiary of a for-profit organization?

Br*****

fa********
10/16/06 10:58 AM (#312)

Br******,

You are wrong. Not about your opinion, but when you say "my absence will barely be noted".

I remain quiet about all the politicking that goes on here, but am active when valuable business-pertaining info is shared. That's where you come in!

That IS my opinion...

Mi*******

lau*********
10/16/06 10:59 AM (#313)

I need to say this again.

PESA is registered as a NON-PROFIT with New Hampshire. It is not a for-profit corp. and it never can be.

Jonahtan's name is on the paperwork, as is Joe's because somebodies name HAS TO BE. It has nothing to do with ownership, because ownership of a non-profit is basically just a figure of speech.

Nobody owns a non-profit, and nobody can ever own it. You're never going to find tradable shares for non-profits because they just don't exist. If somebody leaves a non-profit, they walk away with NOTHING because it doesn't legally belong to anyone except the organization.

This is all extremely EASY for anyone to verify. All you have to do is call the Secretary of State for New Hampshire and inquire on the status of business ID #545508 or the E-Commerce Merchants Alliance Inc..

L*******

emo*********
10/16/06 10:59 AM (#314)

St*******

You posted as I posted. I am sure the BOD would be thrilled to be rid of both of us. But the sixty four thousand dollar question is whether they can lose us, but keep the 984 other members, all dutifully paying lots of dues to a secretive for-profit organization.

Br**********

emo******
10/16/06 11:03 AM (#315)

L*******

But how will anyone know if it is truly non-profit when hundreds of thousands of dollars are taken in and there is NO accounting whatsoever? And is this non-profit group rapidly morphing into a subsidiary of a for-profit organization?

Mi********

I appreciate the kind words. I feel sure that there will likely be another forum down the road where I can participate. The PowerSeller forums are not to my taste, but there may be someplace new where we will meet down the line.

Br*****

1bu******
10/16/06 11:05 AM (#316)

L*****

please stop spreading yopur propoganda and dis-information, one might even suspect one of the BOD sent you here armed with tha tinfo. #1 the BOD never even disclosed the articles of incorportion to members, it was me who found it and posted the link.

#2 PESA is not incorporated anywhere, ID #545508 is the incorporation of E-Commerce Merchants Alliance Inc., and we have no way of telling if this is related to PESA or not. The by-laws are meaningless and new by-laws could have been written and approved.

St*******

lau*******
10/16/06 11:06 AM (#317)

Br*****,

Because legally it can NEVER be a profit venture. If it becomes one then people would be held accountable.

After $25,000 in income, which the dues might come close to ensuring, PESA will be required to start filing form 990 with the IRS to insure compliance.

L******

lau********
10/16/06 11:08 AM (#318)

St*****,

Where did you post an articles of incorporation? Please post it again.

L*******

1bu*******
10/16/06 11:08 AM (#319)

Br*******

I think your poll reflects the answer fairly accurately. someone else started a poll here

internal link removed

and never announced it but more then 50% say the ywill not pay dues, even before this scandal broke out.

anyway, back to the thread you started, I think I need to revise my number lower before it ends.

St******

co********
10/16/06 11:09 AM (#320)

Br***** - you ask the following -

Why do YOU think the BOD has no communication with its members, except through cryptic messages?

Because only they know the true intent - and I think they like it that way.

Do you think that furthers the organization?

No- it causes doubt and that takes from our strength.

Do YOU think it is asking too much merely to know who owns what originally started out as a non-profit organization and has now morphed into a subsidiary of a for-profit organization?

Well no but it would seem the new sister corp. is the for profit spin-off.

K******

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:52 PM,

rossshow Wrote:[LOL!

Who's telling the truth?

/quote]

[quote=PeSA member] PESA is registered as a NON-PROFIT with New Hampshire. It is not a for-profit corp. and it never can be.

Jonahtan's name is on the paperwork, as is Joe's because somebodies name HAS TO BE. It has nothing to do with ownership, because ownership of a non-profit is basically just a figure of speech.

Nobody owns a non-profit, and nobody can ever own it. You're never going to find tradable shares for non-profits because they just don't exist. If somebody leaves a non-profit, they walk away with NOTHING because it doesn't legally belong to anyone except the organization.

This is all extremely EASY for anyone to verify. All you have to do is call the Secretary of State for New Hampshire and inquire on the status of business ID #545508 or the E-Commerce Merchants Alliance Inc..

PeSA member Wrote:please stop spreading yopur propoganda and dis-information, one might even suspect one of the BOD sent you here armed with tha tinfo. #1 the BOD never even disclosed the articles of incorportion to members, it was me who found it and posted the link.

#2 PESA is not incorporated anywhere, ID #545508 is the incorporation of E-Commerce Merchants Alliance Inc., and we have no way of telling if this is related to PESA or not. The by-laws are meaningless and new by-laws could have been written and approved.
Reply With Quote

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:53 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:1bu********
10/16/06 11:09 AM (#321)

L******

You are talking from the hip without reading them? sigh

https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/sos...ngs.asp?743048

lau*********
10/16/06 11:12 AM (#322)

St*****,

That is a dead link.

L******

emo**********
10/16/06 11:12 AM (#323)

L*********

Thanks for replying. But how will ANYONE ever know if any PROFITS are made when there is never any accounting?

We are told that everything will be resolved once we fork over hundreds of thousands to the BOD. But why should anyone believe this, given their past performance?

Past performance may not always be indicative of future performance, but it SURE is a good indicator. If someone spits in my face when I extend my hand for a handshake, I would say the odds are long against them shaking my hand the following day.

Br*******

1bu********
10/16/06 11:16 AM (#324)

L******

the link works for me?

try this and search E-Commerce Merchants Alliance Inc.

https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/sos...99166666666667

emo*********
10/16/06 11:20 AM (#325)

St*******

It works for me, but I can only open the document when I click on the Netscape link, which is odd, since I don't use Netscape.

But is the ONLY document ever filed? It gives virtually no information whatsoever. If so, no wonder they can't qualift as a non-profit.

Br*******

1bu********
10/16/06 11:22 AM (#326)

Br*******

yes same here you must click the N regardless if you use netscape or not. They do things different in New Hampshire I guess

en********
10/16/06 11:25 AM (#327)

L*****:

I think K****** hit the nail on the head: Quote: "Well no but it would seem the new sister corp. is the for profit spin-off."

My take is that the new ECMTA is a "for profit" corp. I don't see how the 2 organizations can truly be independent of one another. ECMTA would never have come to fruition if it were not for PeSA so if ECMTA is a "for profit" entity then it only makes sense that all PeSA members are offered the opportunity to buy stock in this new venture.

D******

lau*********
10/16/06 11:26 AM (#328)

St******,

The Netscape link worked. No, that is not an articles of incorporation. That IS an articles of agreement for a non-profit which, somewhere in this thread, is exactly what I said was required for a non-profit.

A call to the Secretary of States office and the nice woman will also confirm that it is a non-profit in good standing. I consider that to be much more bankable than your master plan.

Br*******,

In all honesty, if profits were made it would put the powers that be in jeopardy with the IRS unless they intended to falsify their form 990's which would jeopardize them even more. For $99 a year or even $240 a year, is anyone prepared to come right out and state that they believe the BOD is a bunch of crooks?

L******

emo*********
10/16/06 11:30 AM (#329)

"For $99 a year or even $240 a year"

Wouldn't it be more correct to say, "For $99,000 a year or even $240,000 a year"?

Surely the owners of this company think they can soon have it up to 1,000 members. A quarter of a million dollars is not chump change. It might not make anyone a crook, but then again, every day formerly honest people rob convenience or liquor stores and get a few hundred dollars.

But the issue is not the money. The issue is why all the secrecy? If I wanted to join a secret society I could join the IRA or a lot of other groups, but I never understood that is what I was doing when I signed on here. Maybe everyone else understood this, but I didn't, and I don't like it.

Br**********

1bu*********
10/16/06 11:33 AM (#330)

L********

if PESA is incorporated separately as you state wrongly, how d oyou explain it does not show on the NH div of corporations site and it has the same ID# as EMA?

St******

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:55 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:1bu*******
10/16/06 11:36 AM (#331)

L******

any corporation filed in NH will show at the division of corporations site. So please go here,

https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/sos...12928240740741

and search PESA anyway you want, and once you find it show us the ID# because the ID# you gave is EMA and not PESA , maybe the nice lady you spoke with was referring to the following?

https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/sos...12928240740741

Click on the Entity Name or Business ID to view more information.
Entity Name Business ID Type Entity
Status Entity
Creation Date

----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

Pesa Micro Communications, Inc. 17289 Corporation Good Standing 12/19/1969

1bu*********
10/16/06 11:39 AM (#332)

Leo just called NH, ID 545508 belongs to EMA not PESA?

lau*********
10/16/06 11:39 AM (#333)

St********,

I stated that it's a non-profit under the E-commerce Merchants Alliance. It's clearly stated in the available bylaws that the E-commerce Merchants Alliance operates as PESA. Those bylaws have been online for (???) maybe a year now? Even if they don't refer to PESA by name, the objectives & membership criteria within the articles of agreement are also identical to those stated in the known bylaws.

Thus, I think an extremely solid case that E-commerce Merchants Alliance has operated as PESA can be legally established.

L*******

co***********
10/16/06 11:39 AM (#334)

Maybe I missed it - but what would it take for a non profit org. to become for profit ?

K********

lau*********
10/16/06 11:40 AM (#335)

K******,

That's impossible.

L******

1bu*********
10/16/06 11:45 AM (#336)

Solid for you maybe L*****, not solid for me. How do you know thoese by-laws are current? How do you know that PESA was not changed to a for profit company?

Also how do you explain the following which are in the posted by-laws? Speifically where it says "There are no other operations of EMA outside of the activities conducted by PESA."

So how is EMCTA now in? Must have been ammended since is my take.

If PESA is a non profit as you state, then according to the by-laws EMCTA is owned by PESA, no?

The registered name of the Association is the "E-commerce Merchants Alliance (EMA)" which currently operates under the name of The Professional eBay Sellers Alliance (referred to in this document as "PESA"). There are no other operations of EMA outside of the activities conducted by PESA.

co********
10/16/06 11:51 AM (#337)

How much profit is a non profit org. allowed to make ? I was a computer tech. at a large non-profit hospital. We had so much waste at that place I had a little slogan. This place is non profit we have to keep it that way.

K******

lau********
10/16/06 11:51 AM (#338)

So how is EMCTA now in?

St*******,

On what basis do you conclude that EMCTA is owned by PESA (or EMA as you prefer)? Jonathan never stated that it was.

L******

li*********
10/16/06 11:52 AM (#339)

Seems to me that EMCTA is Jonathans baby so it should be registered in his home state, New Jersey I think?

1bu*******
10/16/06 11:52 AM (#340)

It says "There are no other operations of EMA outside of the activities conducted by PESA."

So why is PESA all over EMCTA web site? Who gave a for profit company permission to use PESA.

emo*********
10/16/06 11:56 AM (#341)

"Who gave a for profit company permission to use PESA?"

Obviously the BOD of Pesa. Is that not a clear conflict of interest? Should not any owners of EMCTA who are also members of Pesa's BOD resign? If not, why not?

Br********

lau***********
10/16/06 11:57 AM (#342)

St*******,

In the real world, organizations form alliances and partner all the time.

L*******

1bu**********
10/16/06 12:05 PM (#343)

L******

in the real world if I was on the BOD no way would Iform a nalliance as there isnothing in it for PESA, maybe a 90% royalties to PESA on any EMCTA take I might consider it.

But as of now there is nothing I cna see PESA getting other then the KY Jelly

Now you and I can debate this all day, but only the BOD can endthe speculation and disclose all.

I for one will not endorse PESA be associated with EMCTA, and if our current BOD authorized it I would like to see a vote on who voted for it, then I would also liketo see who onws EMCTA, and if it is anyone on our current BOD then it is a conflict of interest.

I would assume if this is the case none of the current BOD would be elected, and in fact I think your own elections commitee should be investigating why this was not disclosed prior to the most curreent election?

St********

co********
10/16/06 12:07 PM (#344)

I suggest a name change.

I am not certain the term alliance is appropriate for this group

This appears to be closer to a

consortium - a group of individuals or companies formed to undertake an enterprise or activity that would be beyond the capabilities of the individual members.

K*******

gr*********
10/16/06 12:13 PM (#345)

I'm honored to be a PESA member but simply put, why isn't the BOD clarifying these questions of ownership and relationship to EMCTA? No response to these threads? Their silence seems to convey that they are hiding something. I am very discouraged. I can't in good conscience send money to PESA unless I know what I am sending them to.....and for.

Je********

oh**********
10/16/06 12:27 PM (#346)

Jay,

I couldn't have said it better. I was at the first PeSA (eBay Elite) meeting in New York, as you were. I took time I couldn't afford and spent money I didn't have for myself and O**** to attend mainly because I called Joe Cortese and he encouraged me to attend - Thanks, Joe!

I have never regretted that trip. A whole new world opened up. Being an eBay seller can be the loneliest occupation. Being able to talk to other sellers face to face is priceless.

I do not often post to this board nor am I able to even log on very often but being able to is worth so much more than the $20/month proposed dues that it's a no brainer for me. And I haven't even mentioned the Summits. I've only been able to attend a few.

I chose not to attend the last summit in SF because I'm in the process of moving to a larger unit and am trying to build 5,000 feet of shelving to go in it. With only two employees plus one in the Philippines I'm doing all the welding and fabricating myself, which is way too much work for an old fat guy. It was almost criminal to miss that Summit and we so wanted to go, O***** was so disappointed, because it was just "up the street" from us but I just couldn't afford the time. We work 25 hours a day 8 days a week here.

Actually I think that requiring dues will help PeSA two ways. 1. It will provide additional funds that are seriously needed. and 2. It will have the effect of purging out those who are only interested in talking and talking and talking but don't want to walk the walk. That will leave more time for those of us who are serious about our eBay business. Frankly I'll be glad to see them leave.

Now if that describes you I would encourage you to step back for a moment and think about not being able to access this forum, air your concerns, talk to other sellers, ask critical questions, find answers, learn what's happening inside eBay, entertain all the thoughts and ideas of the major sellers on eBay, and I could go on and on. I think you will realize that this forum alone is worth at least twenty bucks a month!

If you don't, then, regrettably, we bid you adieu.

J********

har*********
10/16/06 12:35 PM (#347)

St*****, this is all very entertaining. Why don't you pick up the phone and call Jonathan and Joe?

For the record, I am happy with the direction they are taking. I observed and asked questions of the BOD at the SF summit and came away with all of them answered. If I thought for one moment that they didn't have the PeSA memberships interests at heart, I'd say so.

G*******

P.S. the the mudslinging is backfiring

lau*********
10/16/06 12:49 PM (#348)

St*****,

Perhaps we need an investigation into why PESA accepted reduced shipping benefits from Federal Express. Or maybe we should stage an inquiry into the real relationship with Buy-Safe?

As Jonathans baby, ECMTA is most likely going to amount to something. If a partnership means we get reduced price web-design, health-care options, 401-K solutions, etc., etc... then, once again, GREAT!

And I can understand why a partnership with a different organization works better. We talk a lot in here, but not a hell of a lot gets done because we've always have a small segment who create major issues about who is crossing the t's and dotting the i's.... just like now.

L*******

emo*********
10/16/06 01:59 PM (#349)

" I observed and asked questions of the BOD at the SF summit and came away with all of them answered"

By any chance, was one of those questions, "Who owns Pesa and the new off-shoot organization?"

If so, please share their answer. I don't think you should have to fly a thousand miles to get a simple question answered.

Br********

en********
10/16/06 02:34 PM (#350)

L******:

You said, QUOTE: We talk a lot in here, but not a hell of a lot gets done because we've always have a small segment who create major issues about who is crossing the t's and dotting the i's.... just like now."

Like you, PeSA is very much in my heart however I don't the concerns are coming from a small segment. The Poll that was put up asking if members would support dues so far has 74% of those that voted against paying dues - that's not a small number.

Personally, I don't want to see this group split-up which I believe will happen if we don't get some answers.

D***********

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:56 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:spo*********
10/16/06 04:29 PM (#351)

Da*****:

It is insignificant when you consider the poll has 38 responses. The margin of error is +/- 50%.

I would like to know the answers, too. I don't think it will effect my decision.

T******

la**********
10/16/06 07:48 PM (#352)

Man o Man...You guys.

Hey listen, the by laws, they suck.
The BOD, they are volunteers, needless to say they could not possibly spend the time needed to enhance the by laws, or to spend countless hours doing everything a trade organization would need to do. (Even if they delegated (to other volunteers), the delegation process needs to managed!

$99-$240, are you kidding, who cares...maybe this small investment would offer PESA the opportunity to repair the bylaws, and clean up the incorporation of PESA.

The BOD, Joe or Jonathan are not looking to clean up with dues, (based upon the current thread of how many members will we have once dues are implemented is about 300. 300X$100 is $30K, hardly even worth a second thought). I have spent more then 30K on non paying bidders this year alone.

ECMTA will be highest on Jonathans list of priorities not PeSA if this is a fact PESA will likely become a train wreck.

As of now the majority of members seem to agree with my position I only see about 7 members posting to this thread. Majority would need to be about 500 members.

Listen, Joe is a permanent part of PESA. David, Jonathan, Adam and Tom were all voted to their positions (because they are smart, honest and successful business people). In voting for them we put our best interests in their hands. That is it, even if someone was doing something uncool I hardly think the other members of the board would go along with it. I know for a fact that if something not right was going on, many of our phones would be ringing off the hook with concerns from the top down.

St***** ( I love you man) maybe you should be listing games on Ubid, or Bidvillle..rewrite all your descriptions in Japanese and list on Ebay.jp. Let the card fall where they may, the BOD is being watched from the inside and out.

Mi******- Pa******** (sorry in the delay in my appearance) - Isnt there snow in Alaska?

ECMTA-PESA who knows, all I know is smart people are making decisions to help our businesses.

If I was on the BOD, I would not come near this thread with a 10 foot poll.

Not seeing anything un-cool.

J******

go********
10/16/06 07:55 PM (#353)

Hey J******
What a welcome post. Thanks.
B******

mu*********
10/16/06 11:55 PM (#354)

WOW St*******, 205 posts in the past 7 days, guess you are going for a world record?

Al********

aut*******
10/17/06 03:55 AM (#355)

I have to ask, if everyone is so critical of the BOD, why aren't we demanding a new BOD? Especially if this is a sticking point in people deciding to pay dues or not.

We joined here about a year ago and there were alot of helpful posts and responses the first few months. To be honest, that hasn't been true the last 8 or 9 months. Every other post has fighting, complaining, bickering, etc....while all the while the things PESA has supposedly been working on (relationships with Ebay, large sellers getting suspended without prior notice, etc.), is still going on...meaning progress is not being made. Hell, I don't even know who the BOD consists of. All of this in-fighting has resulted in ALOT less posts from Ebay and Paypal people, which is alot of peoples' reason for coming to PESA.

Asking 1,000 members to pay $100 each when communication from needed sources has diminished to being almost non-existent is ridiculous. You guys are taking bets on who how many members there will be after the fees? Not including the BOD, etc....put me down for less than 100. Sorry if I ruffle feathers with this post.

Ma********

emo*******
10/17/06 04:05 AM (#356)

Ma****** wrote "You guys are taking bets on who how many members there will be after the fees? Not including the BOD, etc....put me down for less than 100"

Go to the thread called "Guess how many Pesa members there will be" and enter an actual number ("less than 100" is a little vague) and you will be entered in the contest.

I won't comment on the rest of your post, or else I might be accused of being "negative". If people would just stop being "negative", this forum (and the world) would be such a better place, and all the problems here would simply disappear.

The number one problem here is the many "negative" comments, NOT what those people are commenting about.

Br******

1bu********
10/17/06 04:55 AM (#357)

J*******

Have to disagree man. There is no way in hell they are to busy to tell us who owns PESA and who owns EMCTA.

2 very simple questions only need 2 very simple answers.

St******

1bu********
10/17/06 05:06 AM (#358)

Unreal this thread is out of control, it has 357 posts to it. On post #2 there was two simple questions asked,

who owns PESA

who owns EMCTA

Yes this BOD simply ignored the questions and allows to the group to post all sorts of speculation, allows tempers to flare, and possibly hurts the group long term and short term.

Yes this BOD watches this and allows it to happen rather then just answering the 2 simple questions that were asked in post #2. If the questions were answered the chances are this thread and forum would have stayed positive the past week instead in in a state of turmoil which it is now.

J******

inasmuch as you are always here bitching about paypa land ebay, makes more sense for you to sell on ubid and bidville dude.

St*******

la*********
10/17/06 05:15 AM (#359)

St*******,

I think if these are your primary questions, I think they are fair, I think if the thread had those two questions without all the hoopla, we would have the answers, how about I go on a mission today to get these two questions answered today?

St*****, we are all about selling other places, we have in the past 2-3 months spent countless hours listing and selling items all over the net. I highly recommend it. If you have any questions, feel free to email me. We have learned many valuable lessons. I was being somewhat sarcastic and serious at the same time.

J*******

emo*********
10/17/06 05:16 AM (#360)

I just re-read the first 100 posts of this thread. It started off VERY positive, and even St******* had nice things to say!

It went downhill when some members (including myself) started wondering exactly WHO would be profiting from the new for-profit organization, and it seems to me that the stonewalling of the BOD on this question (for reasons I don't understand) is what turned things negative.

At least for me, the BODs silence on this issue says a lot, and I think have learned all I need to know. I believe that if they had nothing to hide or be embarrassed about, they would not be taking the course of non-action they are following.

Br*******

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:57 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:rt********
10/17/06 05:22 AM (#361)

I have searched all over this board for anything that says the ownership of PESA has changed since I joined and I remember when we were less than 100. I see where steps have been taken to set things up as a non profit and Jonathan did explain where they are with that. Maybe I missed something but I see where nothing has changed, why do we keep asking the BOD the same question regarding ownership, if we don't believe what they have already told us why would we believe it if they said it again?

Regarding EMCTA I am not a member of that group are you? Jonathan did say they were close to accepting members and full details would follow.

So... what question has not been answered? I suggest that we let the BOD move forward and cease asking them to answer questions that have been answered, even if the answer is not what we wanted to hear or as clear as we wish.

Be patient, these guys are volunteers.

Ro*******

1bu***********
10/17/06 05:33 AM (#362)

Ro********8

with all due respect they will woon be getting reimbursement of out of pocket expenses and a stipend, so tha tmakes them more then volunteers. I personally have no problem with the above though, it is probably deserved and earned.

But the two questions are still unanswered.

J*******

Please yes go on that mission. I do not think anyone here wants to see Joe removed, or the group fractured. I think the yare fair questions and we have a right to know who onws these 2 groups and if anyone stands to personally profit now or down the road.

St*******

emo*********
10/17/06 05:39 AM (#363)

Ro********

If "those questions" have been answered, then please tell me those answers.

1) Who exactly owns the entity "Pesa"?

2) Who exactly owns the new for-profit organization (and I believe you ARE a member of it, as are all Pesa members, even though I doubt very many Pesa members joined it; someone correct me if I am wrong on this)

If the answer to either or both is, "It is confidential information", please explain what makes it so.

That is all the questions I have. You say they were answered already. Please refresh me as to what they were.

Thanks!

Br*******

rt***********
10/17/06 05:40 AM (#364)

Steve, please see post #165 for the answers to both questions.

Ro*********

emo************
10/17/06 05:43 AM (#365)

Ro*******

That post clarifies one thing only ("As was announced, PESA members get free access to ECMTA resources when it goes live. Since there are going to be other dues paying members in ECMTA, and PESA members are getting free access, in essence, PESA members are getting other people to carry the cost of their membership."). So all Pesa members get free membership in ECMTA, and it sounds like that is all the payment any of the non-ECMTA-owner members of Pesa will ever get.

But where in that post does it say who owns ECMTA (or for that matter who owns Pesa)?

Br********

1bu***********
10/17/06 05:56 AM (#366)

And where does it say if ECMTA is set up to be a for profit company for possible personal gains to its owners?

St*********

rt********
10/17/06 06:13 AM (#367)

The status of PESA:

Now to official org stuff. PESA is incorporated and request non-profit status. But, because of some of the programs of PESA, it could not be a non-profit 501c6 org until we could ensure compliance. A couple issues raised was:

1. Would PESA be involved in any political activities such as lobbying, ie on the issue of regulating eBay sellers as auctioneers, or contacting lawmakers on internet taxation issues?

2. Would one member of PESA gain greater benefit from the org than another and would PESA as an organization be acting in favor on one member on any issues. Well, some of the programs we've been working on could hurt us there.

3. There were some reporting requirements, but an accountant would take care of that, so we weren't worried.

We would have been able to qualify due to the eBay marketplace common interest. PESA's mission was to work on improving the marketplace as a whole and not just individual businesses.

To date, we have not guaranteed the IRS that we wouldn't do those things which means we have not been granted non-profit status. Does that mean that PESA is setup to generate profits? Technically yes, but as we all know, PESA has been a money pit since it started. The dues were initiated because I would like the organization to have some resources to improve the way we do things. I am not happy with how the organization runs, or doesn't run. Our reporting needs to be better, our communication needs to be better, and we need to develop some benefits. Now, the reason it hasn't happened to date is because there is no money to do it. That is changing now.

PESA needs dues to continue to pursue non profit status.

...members get free access to ECMTA resources when it goes live.

The KEY words being when it goes live. This is a valid questiuon however this is a works in progress, when it is live questions will need to be answered.

Then don't overlook this:
I will try to give members an update each week on initiatives.

We must be careful not to put the cart before the horse, these statements tell me these are works in progress and things may change. This is why I suggest being patient at this point.

Personally I would prefer the BOD wait to provide all the CORRECT (final) details than provide details that change week to week.

Ro*******

li**********
10/17/06 06:13 AM (#368)

The issue is not the dues. Most here would have paid up at the drop of a hat if post number 2 had been answered, however half-assed, in a timely matter.

Since the question went unanswered, blatently so, it started more questions.

I think the entire 'blow-up' here amounts to one thing: The secretive manner in which this organization is run.

Some people are tired of it.

It has been going on for years. Everyone has high hopes of PeSA going places, we are constantly told we are. We are constantly told of all the great things we are doing, have planned, will do, have done. Yet we have nothing to show for any of it.
Except pictures, lots of pictures.

We are constantly told of how many hours and hours of volunteer time people have put in.
What we want to know is on what?

Simply put, the members here do not just want to be members of the great PeSA group, they want to be active participants of the organization. They want to be asked for their input and they want some communication as to what the board is doing.

We see this all the time with eBay. We ask why eBay doesn't ask this group, or any other sellers, before instituting some of their assine changes. This BOD is no different. They plan, they act, they don't even bother to announce anything, we got the last bombshell from AuctionBytes.
No communication.

We have 5 board members. They seem to think that they can speak for the other 982 members without consulting them. They don't need us apparently.

1bu**********
10/17/06 06:16 AM (#369)

Ro*******

It is a couple simple answers, lets just focus on EMCTA then.

Who owns EMCTA?

is EMCTA set up as a for profit company?

does EMCTA stand to make personal profits for benefits of shareholders?

I think these questions need to be addressed prior to PESA asking anyone to pay dues. Ifor one want to know if my PESA dues are supporting in any way a for profit company.

emo*******
10/17/06 06:19 AM (#370)

"They seem to think that they can speak for the other 982 members without consulting them. They don't need us apparently."

I think we will all know if this is true very soon. A Pesa comprised of 5 BODs and a hundred or so members might give the BOD a much-needed "wake-up" call that they are NOT our "bosses", to dole out little bits of information every now and again, and to keep telling us to be thankful for this great organization which has accomplished so much.

Br*******

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 01:59 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:1bu*******
10/17/06 06:21 AM (#371)

...members get free access to ECMTA resources when it goes live.

Who says we want free access to EMCTA?

I do not know enough ebout EMCTA to make that determination.

Again sounds to me like EMCTA is set up to be a for profit company where its woners would personally profit, and they are using PESA members to leverage our success for EMCTA success upon rollout.

As far as discounted shipping supplies, 401K solutions, health ins etc. Most of these are widely available discounted and/or free. First off most here do not qualify for 401k status. T Rowe Price, vanguard etc will provide free retirement solutions to anyone.

Should PESA itself not pursue relationships with bendors anyway for any revenue generated to benefit PESA and not benefit EMCTA?

St********

lau**********
10/17/06 06:22 AM (#372)

Ro******,

There will never be "correct" details. When St***** questions are addressed, it will just move on to phase two because it never stops.

L*********

emo*********
10/17/06 06:23 AM (#373)

"Ifor one want to know if my PESA dues are supporting in any way a for profit company."

Even if Pesa funds are kept completely separate from EMCTA, there still seems to me to be a massive conflict of interest between the two (especially if, as it seems, the owners of EMCTA are the BOD of Pesa). It appears the BOD of Pesa unilaterally threw massive Pesa support behind EMCTA (to give it a base, and credibility) and I think Pesa members should have been in on that decision (to use our non-profit group to benefit a for-profit group).

Br*********

1bu
10/17/06 06:25 AM (#374)

L*******

PS, who opened the door here and let you in anyway? Where you also one who was granted access without MEMCOM approval, jus tcurious, only wanted to know because it is apparent you never qualified to behere based on the qualifications MEMCOM set up?

emo*********
10/17/06 06:27 AM (#375)

L*********

I think it is very unfair to say, "We are not going to answer your two questions (which require single sentence answers) because you are likely to ask follow-up questions"

If St****, and li******* and myself and any others who ask these questions PROMISE to ask no more questions of the BOD, will the BOD in return PROMISE to answer the two simple questions? I can't speak for the others, but I promise to abide by this. If we can get the others to "sign on" to this, it WOULD be a way to end the current endless bickering.

Br********

lau*******
10/17/06 06:31 AM (#376)

St*****,

I was here well before MEMCOM existed, part of Jo***** Sta******* splinter group, and I'm still here.

Br*******,

You might stop... but IT never does.

L*******

co********
10/17/06 06:36 AM (#377)

I would like to see some clear and stated goals as to what will be accomplished within this next year.

I don't know how we are going to get there because I still don't know where this group is going.

K*******

rt************
10/17/06 06:45 AM (#378)

St******** this too is a valid question:
I think these questions need to be addressed prior to PESA asking anyone to pay dues. Ifor one want to know if my PESA dues are supporting in any way a for profit company.

To date, other than several members that made a $100 donation no one paid any dues. At this point the BOD has only stated they will collect dues soon. Agree they will need to provide answers when the time is right.

Right now it is time for patience. How can we dot the i's that have not been written?

Ro**********

1bu*******
10/17/06 06:49 AM (#379)

Ro*******

no problem with that, in the mean time do you or do you not think the BOD could answer the following.

who owns EMCTA?

Is EMCTA set up to be a for profit company?

Does the owners of EMCTA stand to personally profit on it?

St******

rt*******
10/17/06 06:56 AM (#380)

K****** I agree it is time for this group to set goals for the next year and the progress made will be the determining factor on the value of the dues for the following year.

Ro******

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 02:00 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:rt*********
10/17/06 07:04 AM (#381)

St***** let's try the what if game...

What if:
... ownership has not been determined (yet).
... the BOD is considering several different options regarding ownership.
... as Jay said, the BOD told us a little to see what we have to say before deciding on ownership.
... there are legal issues that need to be resolved.
... the BOD simply wants to have all their ducks in a row before providing all the details.

I'm sure others can provide many other What if's.

Ro*******

mu*********
10/17/06 07:12 AM (#382)

yes, for example

what if

...1bu******* suddenly stops posting?

al********

emo***********
10/17/06 07:12 AM (#383)

If the owners of EMCTA refuse to divulge who they are PRIOR to collecting a hundred thousand in dues, why in the world will they reveal themselves afterwards? If we wait until AFTER the dues are collected, this discussion will be postponed for a year, until the $240 dues come due.

I wonder why the BOD thinks all this divisiveness is better than revealing their ownership of EMCTA. It feels to me like there must be something bad that is also being concealed, if it is so important that it is worth all this hue and cry.

Br********

1bu*********
10/17/06 07:12 AM (#384)

What if:

... ownership has been determined

... it has already been decided EMCTA is set up to be a for profit company for personal gain.

mu**********
10/17/06 07:19 AM (#385)

"It feels to me like there must be something bad that is also being concealed, if it is so important that it is worth all this hue and cry"

Yes, probably Meg bought the PESA shares. eBay is going downhill, and now she needs to line her pockets with poor PESAns money. C'mon guys, wake up!

Al**********

co*********
10/17/06 07:30 AM (#386)

"What if:... ownership has been determined ... it has already been decided EMCTA is set up to be a for profit company for personal gain."

I am still fairly new here and lurk and read a lot more than I post.

Does it (PESA/EMCTA) provide a benefit (value) to me and/or my business greater than the dues? If so, I will pay the dues. If not, I probably would not pay.

I do not see ownership/profit of the organizations as a major issue.

en*********
10/17/06 07:46 AM (#387)

I think everyone has valid points and everyone has the right to post as much as they like about this topic as long as it remains curtious and professional (posts like #382 add nothing to this discussion).

J****** Wi******'s post yesterday put things better into perspective for me. We have 5 members on the Board not just 1 or 2 and we did elect 4 of them. I know many (including myself) are so passionate about PeSA hence the reason why this thread is now almost 400 posts long. I am going to take a "sit back and wait" approach for now. Jonathan has promised updates and Joe has let it be known that far more information will be forthcoming as soon as we move over to our own forums on gopesa.org within the next week or two.

My only concern here is that certain PeSA members have been offered stock in a new entity and others have not. I hope I am proven wrong on this issue.

D*******.

li*********
10/17/06 07:48 AM (#388)

The Major Issue is the lack of communication.

1bu********
10/17/06 07:50 AM (#389)

Da********

unfortunately there are a few who only know how to make personal attacks as a means to difuse the issues at and, sad but true. Despite the fact the forum guidelines and membership guidelines state this should not be done.

And I share the same concerns as you here "My only concern here is that certain PeSA members have been offered stock in a new entity and others have not"

St*********

li***********
10/17/06 07:51 AM (#390)

"I am going to take a "sit back and wait" approach for now. Jonathan has promised updates and Joe has let it be known that far more information will be forthcoming as soon as we move over to our own forums on gopesa.org within the next week or two."

We've been promised and promised for years and we are still waiting for answers on lots of questions. Now we are being asked to pay up then wait. History shows that no details will be forthcoming.
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

BellisimaJ. · 11-10-2006, 02:02 PM,

From TRS:

Quote:ac*********
10/17/06 08:20 AM (#391)

This thread and the arguments have gotten counter productive.

Everyone reading the posts knows what information is desired from the Board. I'm confident the BOD knows the questions.

In all fairness, Jonathan did give a partial response over the weekend. They are not collecting any money yet. I think the BOD should have a chance to meet before they answer. Don't they normally meet on Wednesdays?

It doesn't make any sense to be arguing amongst ourselves as to what the BOD will say. Why don't we back off, give them a chance to meet, develop an answer and respond?

Why don't we give the BOD through this week to answer? I propose that the next post to this thread be from the BOD and I hope that they will provide us with a proper response.

en********
10/17/06 09:16 AM (#392)

Jo******:

I agree. The answers haven't been forthcoming and that may be for good reason. I second John's proposal that we back off and give BOD a chance to formally respond.

Da******

joefriday2
10/17/06 10:22 AM (#393)

I don't see any information regarding PESA members being offered stock in PESA or ECMTA. Where did that come from?

Who was offered stock? Why wasn't I offered stock?

Ben

sus*********
10/17/06 11:12 AM (#394)

I'm a newbie here and certainly don't know org history or the politics of the organization, BUT it seems to me that in order for eBay to take the org seriously, we have to stop the bickering between ourselves and focus on our best business interests. All this takes up a lot of space and time and makes everyone look bad. I agree the 2 questions should be answered and I thought I saw an answer somewhere that the org would continue to be run as a nonprofit, so let's get em answered and move on. The BOD certainly get expenses paid, they should not be out of pocket, stipend depends on how much, how often, and the organizations fiscal health. Just my 2 cents as a novice.

Sus*******

emo**********
10/17/06 11:20 AM (#395)

If I too can have a decent chunk of ECMTA stock, I will promise to not only stop all criticism, but to sing the praises of ECMTA.

Br********

co********
10/17/06 12:44 PM (#396)

can have ?

You don't mean buy ?

K******

emo*********
10/17/06 01:00 PM (#397)

I think my silence (and glowing endorsement) is worth free stock, don't you?

Br*******

co********
10/17/06 01:19 PM (#398)

I am not part owner - I could not say.

ce**********
10/17/06 01:42 PM (#399 of 769)

Br******, for you we only have options available. Do you want puts or calls?

JH

lan*********
10/17/06 01:50 PM (#400)

Uh Uhhhhhhhhhh !

I think I googled the wrong ECTMA ¿

ECMTA :
European Chamber Music Teachers Association will serve as a Concrete Meeting Point and Thematic Chamber Music Network Discussion Forum for music educators for Further Joint Chamber Music Curriculum Development and tracing the changes of the Employment Possibilities in the future.

It can realise Practical Implementations in Ensemble Playing, and smaller projects focusing on more exact chamber music topics can be organised in the future.

Pedagogic Repertoire Knowledge will be emphasised; in this purpose the ECMTA will publish web sites and collect a Virtual Library of Pedagogic Chamber Music Repertoire in co-operation with the Kuhmo Virtuosi International Centre of Chamber Music in the future.

Membership is possible both on institutional and individual level.

The ECMTA will be established and the First Assembly will take place during the Chamber Music Conference in May 4-6th 2007 in Jyväskylä, Finland (see file Conference Information, please).

The Constitution of the Association will be approved in the First Assembly, in which also the Chairman and the Board will be elected.

Proposals for the post of the Chairman and Board Members are very welcome!
__________________

http://therossshow.com/showthread.php?t=6129&page=5

sneakymagenta · (This post was last modified: 11-10-2006, 06:11 PM by sneakymagenta.)

[quote author=xppman link=topic=5799.msg31562#msg31562 date=1163128769]
I WILL say THIS.
Can any of you at least give any other "group" a try and QUIT BASHING EVERYONE?
[/quote]

I saw CAPP today.Â You don't think creating an ID with a TT member's name and adding a "bigbutt" to it is bashing?Â : Smile

Quote:nonprofit

Hmm conflicting answers.